Bio-Diesel - A Travel Headache

[wrmc]

Good point about the Politics, however it is what it is.

Does anyone have a list of states where they mandates Bio20 so they can be avoided. I will be driving from Ca to PA in May.

So additions to the list would be:

8. Keep the DEF tank tipped off, refill on returning to home base. Fill before starting a trip.

9. Avoid Illinois. No reason to support a state that wants to ruin my motorhome.


Isata 3 RW on order, due in November.

[JCDMeyer]

I think everyone is getting a bit paranoid about Bio-diesel. I have been, and I know several people who are using it in our semis for a couple of years years now with no issues. Usually it's a 20% blend. I can't prove it but I have heard where guys have run 100% bio in their trucks. Farmers use it every day up to 100% in their regular untouched diesel engines.

To my knowledge there are only two things to be concerned about using biodiesel.

1. The stuff will gel up at about 33°F. Blending with regular diesel fuel will lower the cloud point.
Some regular diesel fuel will cloud up at 10°F.
Blending with #1 clear diesel fuel (kerosene) up to 15% is what the oil companies do in Ohio.
The solution to clouding is proper blending and /or additives.

2. Bio-diesel will clean everything it touches including your fuel tank and fuel lines. The dirt will clog your fuel filter. Once you have changed your filter twice you should be good to go without any problems. The Bio-diesel will continue to clean your injectors, heads and cylinders. After 100,000 miles your engine will be cleaner than new.

So drivers insist that biodiesel gives them more power and better fuel economy. I personally cannot I personally cannot attest to those findings. My truck gets a pathetic 5.5 - 6.0 mpg regardless of how I drive it or type of fuel I use. I have a 14 Litre Detroit Series 60 engine rated at 455 Hp. I could have it turned up to 515 hp and expect better results.

In my opinion all of the engine manufacturers knew biodiesel was coming. Any manufacturer that will not honor the warranty in light of a federally mandated product is not to be trusted or patronized.

Bio-diesel is not the boogeyman and it will not hurt your engine.

Ethanol however is acidic thus not safe for earlier model cars.

Bio-diesel is not ethanol! It's cooking oil. I. E. Crisco.

[grumpyoldman]

Originally Posted by MartyQ

Thought I read somewhere, if the pump is labeled ULSD and has no other bio labels, the bio content is 5% or less. Is this true?

This is the case for the Flying J in northwest Davenport, IA.

I just did a search on the Pilot/Flying J website and for all of the stations in Iowa it states the "intended" bio diesel blend is B20. I specifically checked the one in northwest Davenport, Ia. and it says B20. It could be less at certain times of the year, but never more than 20%.

[grumpyoldman]

My take away from this whole discussion is to NOT buy a Mercedes diesel. All vehicle manufacturers knew biodiesel was coming and they made adjustments/modifications to their engines to accommodate the biodiesel. Until Mercedes can do the same, I would stay away from them. It may be a great engine but with the low biodiesel restrictions I would not consider buying one.
Thanks to this forum for pointing out the defects in the Mercedes diesel.

[NMWildcat]

Originally Posted by grumpyoldman

My take away from this whole discussion is to NOT buy a Mercedes diesel. All vehicle manufacturers knew biodiesel was coming and they made adjustments/modifications to their engines to accommodate the biodiesel. Until Mercedes can do the same, I would stay away from them. It may be a great engine but with the low biodiesel restrictions I would not consider buying one.
Thanks to this forum for pointing out the defects in the Mercedes diesel.

X2! Exactly.

[JCDMeyer]

Originally Posted by grumpyoldman

I just did a search on the Pilot/Flying J website and for all of the stations in Iowa it states the "intended" bio diesel blend is B20. I specifically checked the one in northwest Davenport, Ia. and it says B20. It could be less at certain times of the year, but never more than 20%.

Generally the pump should be labeled Bio-diesel or B20 ect...If not you're getting Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD). Yes, it's true that B20 is merely a name but does not signify the actual percentage of Bio-diesel that is in the product. It can have up to 20% but will vary depending on temperature, price and availability. The consumer will never know the actual blend % that they are buying any given day.

[NMWildcat]

And for most of us, the % of bio doesn't really concern us. I do feel for those that have finicky diesels

[KatanaPilot]

Mercedes sold 28,000+- Sprinters in 2015 and again in 2016. I suspect RV's are a minority fraction of those numbers.

I assume the MB passenger cars that have diesels also use the same emissions scheme with DPF's and would therefore have the same biodiesel limitations. MB sales of diesels were 2-3% of 380,752, so subtracting out the Sprinters that would be an additional 10,000 diesel sales.

Regardless, MB will be forced to rectify the bio-diesel issue or face rapidly declining sales of Sprinters and diesel cars.

Those of us with MBS chassis will have to find a reasonable way to operate our RV's within the limitations of the fuels that are available.

It's too bad that the big-agra lobby has been successful in convincing (or buying) our politicians that we need to convert usable food into unneeded fuel for our vehicles (this definitely includes ethanol) and receive subsidies from the taxpayers.

[NMWildcat]

I think any renewable fuel source is an improvement over fossil (unrenewable) fuels. Hopefully, renewable fuels will keep improving so we can all use them successfully.

[jeffrapp]

Originally Posted by FFred

Your list is all good concepts.

I would add to fill the DEF tank often and especially at home where the vehicle may rest a while. Fill it FULL!

I also suggest getting a code scanner of some sort , so IF the exhaust system throws a code it can be cleared and the vehicle operated.

Bio diesel is a USA political gift to farm states where the first POTEUS primaries are held., to keep crop prices high.

Burning food to create crap fuel is not a part of any Mexican program.

I agree with all the suggestions.
I may have unintentionally added some confusion to the thread by mentioning the lack of ULSD in Mexico.
These are 2 different issues. The MB engine requires both ULSD and 5% or less biodiesel, according to the manufacturer.
The quote above regarding Mexico reflects the confusion I may have created. I was talking about ULSD, not biodiesel.
Amid all this information, I don't recall anyone actually reporting problems or warranty issues because they used B20 or non-ULSD. Can anyone report any issues they actually experienced?
It may be that these engines haven't been around long enough to get into trouble yet, particularly since we RV'ers generally don't drive as much as delivery vans.
My Prism is 3 years old, with around 27,000 miles, and I haven't (as far as I know) had any problems yet.

[Oakman]

I can’t say for sure if the $5,099.00 repair on my 2010 Ford 6.4 diesel is related to bio-diesel or not but that repair came with less than 69,000 miles on the odometer. Owner’s manual states not to use diesel that contains more than 5% bio-diesel. We camp in Illinois a lot so….who knows? You don’t have much choice when traveling in areas where only bio-diesel is sold.

Part of that expensive repair on the 6.4 was the high pressure fuel injection pump. After this experience there is no way I would buy an RV with a diesel engine that wasn’t designed to operate on 20% bio-diesel.

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by FFred

Bio diesel is a USA political gift to farm states where the first POTEUS primaries are held., to keep crop prices high.

Burning food to create crap fuel is not a part of any Mexican program.

I don't think it was intended to be a gift to farm states as much as it was a way to give the OPEC countries an "Urban Freeway Salute". Back in the early 1970's we were a lot more dependent on oil from the Mid East than we are today. Developing other sources was key to implementing that change.

Bio-Fuel is here to stay. It's now being used in commercial aircraft after tons of testing. This will be the same as when Unleaded Gasoline was first introduced. Eventually the manufacturers got their "stuff" together and figured out how to build engines that would handle it. Same for Bio-Diesel.

What's strange is that MB builds diesels that will run on some of the most rancid of fuels in 3rd World Countries so it's not as if they don't have the ability. Same for most other manufacturers that sell to the world market.

What's funny is that around here there are a lot of guys who make their own bio diesel from Fry Oil. Follow one of their old pickups burning the stuff and you'd swear you had a McDonalds right in front of your car.

[richp]

Hi,

It might seem easy to resolve not to buy a vehicle that won't run on 20 percent bio. But...

When I bought my 2009 Duramax, GM's acceptable limit was 5 percent. Bio was not as prevalent as it is now -- and then largely in the Midwest, where farm belt politics swayed the market.

But now that national policy decisions have pushed bio much harder and wider, folks like me are in a real squeeze. We own fine vehicles, but are caught between politics and evolving technology. It's not just warranty issues -- we don't want to harm our engines to the tune of many thousands of dollars.

FWIW.

Rich Phillips

[NMWildcat]

Yep... The only Duramax that probably shouldn't run greater then 5% are LMM engines (2007.5 thru 2010). And that's only because of the method of DPF regens used. Sounds like a great candidate for a delete

[richp]

Hi Wildcat,

Yeah, but at least I don't have to fool around with DEF. (wry grin)

Rich

[NMWildcat]

Originally Posted by richp

Hi Wildcat,

Yeah, but at least I don't have to fool around with DEF. (wry grin)

Rich

I hear ya! I'm keeping my LBZ as long as I can

[CarolinaBlue]

Originally Posted by JCDMeyer

I think everyone is getting a bit paranoid about Bio-diesel. I have been, and I know several people who are using it in our semis for a couple of years years now with no issues. Usually it's a 20% blend. I can't prove it but I have heard where guys have run 100% bio in their trucks. Farmers use it every day up to 100% in their regular untouched diesel engines.

To my knowledge there are only two things to be concerned about using biodiesel.

1. The stuff will gel up at about 33°F. Blending with regular diesel fuel will lower the cloud point.
Some regular diesel fuel will cloud up at 10°F.
Blending with #1 clear diesel fuel (kerosene) up to 15% is what the oil companies do in Ohio.
The solution to clouding is proper blending and /or additives.

2. Bio-diesel will clean everything it touches including your fuel tank and fuel lines. The dirt will clog your fuel filter. Once you have changed your filter twice you should be good to go without any problems. The Bio-diesel will continue to clean your injectors, heads and cylinders. After 100,000 miles your engine will be cleaner than new.

So drivers insist that biodiesel gives them more power and better fuel economy. I personally cannot I personally cannot attest to those findings. My truck gets a pathetic 5.5 - 6.0 mpg regardless of how I drive it or type of fuel I use. I have a 14 Litre Detroit Series 60 engine rated at 455 Hp. I could have it turned up to 515 hp and expect better results.

In my opinion all of the engine manufacturers knew biodiesel was coming. Any manufacturer that will not honor the warranty in light of a federally mandated product is not to be trusted or patronized.

Bio-diesel is not the boogeyman and it will not hurt your engine.

Ethanol however is acidic thus not safe for earlier model cars.

Bio-diesel is not ethanol! It's cooking oil. I. E. Crisco.

Well I asked Mercedes if everyone has become a bit paranoid. They surely didn't think so. Their response was that "any" biodiesel used in the newer, "advanced", Blutec Diesel engines would be detrimental. Anything over 5% biodiesel also voids the Mercedes warranty.

It seems like a deceptive trade practice, and unethical, for Forest River (the coach manufacturer) and Mercedes (the Sprinter Chasis manufacturer) to sell the public expensive RV's without first disclosing how difficult it is to avoid expensive damage and comply with their warranty. No one - manufacturers or dealers - disclosed the problem. Hope someone starts a class action suit.

I did reach out to GasBuddy and asked if they could include a feature that identifies stations that sell ULSD without biodiesel. Seems like the stations that sell it would want to work with GasBuddy. It also seems that it would put negative financial pressure on the.biodiesel stations that would surely lose business.

[MartyQ]

Originally Posted by grumpyoldman

I just did a search on the Pilot/Flying J website and for all of the stations in Iowa it states the "intended" bio diesel blend is B20. I specifically checked the one in northwest Davenport, Ia. and it says B20. It could be less at certain times of the year, but never more than 20%.

I stopped at the FlyingJ in Davenport, IA. The auto pumps have the low sulfur sticker. The semi pumps have the bio-diesel sticker. I stopped by the desk and talked to the manager. She indicated that both the auto diesel pumps and the semi pumps both contain 2% or less of bio. So, the stickers are legal at both pumps. Guess "intended" means that much.

[Phinias]

What's not mentioned is the introduction of methanol to minnipulate the ignition temp to an effective range.