high end quality issues?

[adaycj]

I've owned inexpensive homes, and more expensive ones. I've owned cheap cars, and some expensive brand new ones. I've owned some relatively cheap RVs and TTs. I've never owned a really high end RV, but I've worked on a lot of them.

The quick answer is you can't buy your way out of the problem. Since people who spend more money on things typically want more features, more technology, and more complexities for their money ... If anything I think the higher end stuff has a tendency to have more problems.

I think you're smart to do some research on how the industry works, They really do feel bad for some people who go into it blind. The well researched consumer turns out better in this case, then having the right frame of mind goes a long ways towards satisfaction with these things.

[GVNorm]

Originally Posted by DouglasReid

Think about your own life experiences. How many times when everything went perfect did you mention it to others?

Now contrast that to when things went Wrong!

You are reading about the tiny number of people who have problems and want some one to commiserate and agree with them. They are miserable and want everyone else to be just as miserable as they are.

They are not the majority of RV purchasers!

You're absolutely right!....The majority of RVers buy one, use it for a couple weeks and park it for a year. What about the full timers that buy "Full time living" units. Our is not a FR brand and have lost over 10 months of warranty time sitting in a "factory" repair facility. Top of the line offered by this company. Trouble since day 2 and still have issues even after 5 trips to their shops. We're out of our 3 yr warranty and I'm not letting them go away. Thats what lemon laywers are for. Those that don't use their rv regularly aren't likely to have the problems of one that gets used alot.
Norm

[bikendan]

Mickey M,
I agree that it's not right. I never have said it is.
Numerous times I've said that it would require the public to stop buying RVs until the RV Industry is forced to make changes.
The fact is that it took foreign competition to force American auto manufacturers to make changes to win back the consumer. Unfortunately this won't happen for the RV Industry. So unless the government gets involved, the only way changes can occur will have to be from the consumer end.

[DouglasReid]

Originally Posted by dmctlc

Well it's obvious you've had no issues with any RV you've ever purchased including your own. Right? If you tell us that they were minor and you fixed yourself then you're part of the problem. If you tell us that it should be expected to have issues when you spend anywhere from a few thousand or so on upward and exceeding several million dollars on a new RV then it's with folks with that opinion is the reason the RV industry is slow to respond to their quality issues. So there's a lot of Govt. and other standards, associations like NATM, AWS, AISC, ACCA, ANSI, AHRI, NEMA, RVIA, IEEE, FVSS, etc. but very few have any standards for recreational vehicles. They adapt what's out their uses on homes on land which everyone points out that this is on wheels. NFPA 1192 does address it for safety issues and the NHTSA has some that employ safety guidelines. The Auto industry worked hard to set quality standards for the their industry (IATF 16949 AEC-Q100/200) and IMHO I feel they've done pretty good. They hold their subs to a higher standard than I think the RV industry does to theirs. A study was done a few years ago on about 20 or so RV manufacturers all who claimed they had a comprehensive Quality control and inspection on their units. In the end it was found out that 25% of them truly were fully inspected before they left the factory. Hence the complaints of loose material such as screws, wire, wood shavings or just wood were found in the cabinets and behind them. My heck my Class A Georgetown Gasser I bought new in 2017 had many issues in fact in the cabinet I found an inspection sheet that pointed out these issues and none were fixed. The dealer used it to show FR what they were fixing. I guess they felt since they could claim he final inspection was done they didn't have to fix it or they felt they would fix themselves. In the end I'm sure some might like out, or accept some issues, or don't even notice them until something major happens but striving for anything less than 100% quality for Made in America in my book is unacceptable. I think we'll agree that Elkhart Country is the hub of the RV industry and only recently did they realize the need and value of good training and opened up the RV Technical Institute in I think 2019, Great step for the industry because it will introduce more standardize training, this will spurn improvements in the quality of the industry as well including development of more standards specially for our houses on wheels. I and I'm sure others set their expectations on what the auto industry has done in the sense of producing a high quality product, some say we shouldn't expect that and I say shame on them. We most certainly should expect a quality product of the highest level especially when the cost is so high for something some people use in many cases so infrequently. What's holding it back is many are willing to accept less. Think of that you just paid $30,000 for a trailer or $300,000 or a Class A and the door or trim falls off while traveling, the shower leaks, the basement doors swing open while cruising down the highway at 65MPH. We, the consumers control the quality and if you don't think so then your kidding yourself. A RVIA study "revealed that the RV industry had an overall economic impact to the US economy of $114 billion, supporting nearly 600,000 jobs, contributing more than $32 billion in wages and paying over $12 billion in federal, state, and local taxes." And in 2017 over 500 million RVs were sold. That's in one year. It may not come close to the auto industry numbers but it's significant.
Sorry for the long dissertation but these forums are important as well as your voice not only to the dealers but to the manufacturers so don't stop pass the word and though it still might take years to see major quality improvements the sheer fact they are listening now is important. An educated consumer is very important and that's where we all come into play. Thanks to all and enjoy camping, I have for over 6o yrs..

Whew!! Too much, too tight and no breaks, my old eyes could not get through your entire dissertation.

[nomad297]

Originally Posted by DouglasReid

Whew!! Too much, too tight and no breaks, my old eyes could not get through your entire dissertation.

Same here. I really would have liked to read this, but when I opened it up, there was an explosion in my eyes and brain, so I just couldn’t attempt it.

Bruce

[Jcape]

The RV Industry as a whole does not perform quality control at the factory. They depend on the dealers to do the inspection and repair of the unit before it leaves the lot, that doesn't happen even when they charge for a pre-delivery inspection. The difference between a $25,000 travel trailer and a $500,000 motor home is the price, appearence and the chassis. The mechanicals are pretty much the same, whether it's the water pump, toilet, sink, plumbing, electrical, furnace, hotwater heater or refrigerator, they all come from basically three suppliers. As someone said earlier, if you want a better experience you better check the unit top to bottom, exercise every component and take it for an extended test drive. I got my first travel trailer in 1969 and I have never had one without issues, some very major, one was replaced because of a bad frame. It's an unfortunate trate of the industry. Some make a comparison to the auto industry, quality in the auto industry is leaps and bounds better than the RV industry, how many have had their car in the shop for weeks at a time for a $25,000 car?

[dcharna]

I am new to RV world. My leisure time has been spent boating for the past 30 plus years. Talk about mini earthquakes. There is nothing in the RV world that can compare to slamming into a 10 ft wave at 30 mph. Yet, the boat is okay. In fact, I have put 1,000s of hours on countless boats up to 44 feet and have NEVER had issues like I here on this forum. They are all hand built as well. Ask Sea Ray for a wiring diagram and voila you get it. So, it can be done. Like everyone has said, if there is a willing consumer for junk, junk is what you get.

Dan

[Oldhserst]

Sad but true.......

[DouglasReid]

Originally Posted by dcharna

I am new to RV world. My leisure time has been spent boating for the past 30 plus years. Talk about mini earthquakes. There is nothing in the RV world that can compare to slamming into a 10 ft wave at 30 mph. Yet, the boat is okay. In fact, I have put 1,000s of hours on countless boats up to 44 feet and have NEVER had issues like I here on this forum. They are all hand built as well. Ask Sea Ray for a wiring diagram and voila you get it. So, it can be done. Like everyone has said, if there is a willing consumer for junk, junk is what you get.

Dan

Lets assume, for the sake of argument, that what you say s true. (Personally I dont' believe that). It is apparent that all the bitching on earth has not and most likely will not solve the issue.

You ae left with two options it seems:

1. accept things as they aer.
2. get out of the RV world.

Assume you select opt1on 1...........then consider anold Irish proverb/prayer:

God, grand me the strength and courage to change that which I can
Grant me the Courage to accept that which I cannot change
and lastly grant me the wisdom to know the difference.

Banging your head against a brick wall does not knock down the wall, it beats up your forehead.

Most got into the RV world for a little relaxation, ..........give it a try.

[pclayton2]

I have been purchasing and using RV's for over 35 years and you are spot one. The quality of many of the RV's in todays market are horrendous and the warranties are terrible. I have said for years now that the RV industry reminds me of the US auto industry back in the 60's & 70's and one day and outside group will come in and change how things are done like the Japanese companies did to the US Automakers. But until then, you have to make the best of what's available, do your home work and select the best quality product you can that meets your needs for the price point you want.

[Egalt]

Elesser - you should buy a condo.

[Swimmer]

Originally Posted by dcharna

I am new to RV world. My leisure time has been spent boating for the past 30 plus years. Talk about mini earthquakes. There is nothing in the RV world that can compare to slamming into a 10 ft wave at 30 mph. Yet, the boat is okay. In fact, I have put 1,000s of hours on countless boats up to 44 feet and have NEVER had issues like I here on this forum. They are all hand built as well. Ask Sea Ray for a wiring diagram and voila you get it. So, it can be done. Like everyone has said, if there is a willing consumer for junk, junk is what you get.
Dan

Agree, I also read the earthquake analogy. The forces boat experience are much greater. Add in salt water to cool the engine, AC reveres cycle systems, etc and its no comparison.

To be fair, I do think the boating industry suffers from poor quality, especially in the lower end boats. The difference is, higher end cruising boats such as Nordhavn, Kadey-Krogen, etc do build quality vessels with systems that can handle harsh environments for thousands of hours and cross oceans.

BTW, our first boat was a Sea Ray. Loved it.

[pclayton2]

Originally Posted by Egalt

Elesser - you should buy a condo.

Thats actually a good recommendation. At least in 10 years his investment will be worth double his money instead of worth only 10% if that.

[Oldhserst]

Originally Posted by DouglasReid

Lets assume, for the sake of argument, that what you say s true. (Personally I dont' believe that). It is apparent that all the bitching on earth has not and most likely will not solve the issue.

You ae left with two options it seems:

1. accept things as they aer.
2. get out of the RV world.

Assume you select opt1on 1...........then consider anold Irish proverb/prayer:

God, grand me the strength and courage to change that which I can
Grant me the Courage to accept that which I cannot change
and lastly grant me the wisdom to know the difference.

Banging your head against a brick wall does not knock down the wall, it beats up your forehead.

Most got into the RV world for a little relaxation, ..........give it a try.

Been RV’ing over 35 + years. Don’t need a lecture on where my mind is or what my options are....... just my personal observation. Wishing you the best...

[pclayton2]

Originally Posted by Oldhserst

Been RV’ing over 35 + years. Don’t need a lecture on where my mind is or what my options are....... just my personal observation. Wishing you the best...

Never accept things has they are. Always pursue improvements and perfection. You might not get there but you will always get further thann just accepting the status quo.

[FFred]

There is a very simple solution, purchase a used RV someone else has in good running condition.

With a say a 5 year old unit the price will be very reasonable compared to new , and if an item craps out a new air cond, reefer or heating plant is cheap compared to loosing months parked at a dealers.

For 20-26 ft a 1970's Superior would be a great find , A 30 ft Bluebird front engine (FC) would not break the bank.

Google "crate engine" for the engine in the coach , sometimes you can move uo 40 years for about $5,000.

Remember the folks building a 20 ft trailer and the $1,000,000 bus conversion are from the same disinterested labor pool.

When having an item replaced at a dealer , the fellow doing the work probably has done it before , and will have to account for his work should the item fail.

And since the dealer is not paid till it works , they will attend the work.

[rickemo]

Originally Posted by Jcape

The RV Industry as a whole does not perform quality control at the factory. They depend on the dealers to do the inspection and repair of the unit before it leaves the lot, that doesn't happen even when they charge for a pre-delivery inspection. The difference between a $25,000 travel trailer and a $500,000 motor home is the price, appearence and the chassis. The mechanicals are pretty much the same, whether it's the water pump, toilet, sink, plumbing, electrical, furnace, hotwater heater or refrigerator, they all come from basically three suppliers. As someone said earlier, if you want a better experience you better check the unit top to bottom, exercise every component and take it for an extended test drive. I got my first travel trailer in 1969 and I have never had one without issues, some very major, one was replaced because of a bad frame. It's an unfortunate trate of the industry. Some make a comparison to the auto industry, quality in the auto industry is leaps and bounds better than the RV industry, how many have had their car in the shop for weeks at a time for a $25,000 car?

Jcape makes some good points.

I worked in the electrical connector industry for 45 years. We produced terminals and connections for the auto/medical/appliance/industrial industries. Most of these industries required stringent quality control at every level from the raw material to manufacturing to packaging and shipping. Then these industries applied similar quality control in their processes. I'm not confident that the RV industry applies similar quality control when building new motorhomes. We wanted certain features in our next motorhome but also had a budget to stay under $100k. The FR3 fit our needs as far as floorplan and other features. How much more cost would the manufacturers add to the price if they added stringent quality control to their processes? Maybe 20%? That extra 20% may push the price out of the reach of many possible buyers.
Since we purchased our new FR3 this past February the unit has spent 50 days at the dealer having small and large issues fixed and it's still there as I write this. All issues are covered under warranty so we're only losing time that could be spent on the road camping. Hopefully we'll get everything fixed before the warranty runs out and can look forward to many years traveling in the motorhome we always wanted.

[Bhrava]

Food for thought. Put your home on wheels and travel 70MPH on these crappy roads and see how long it will last. No matter how well built you think your home is, it will fall apart rather quickly once moving. You can't compare a solid fiberglassed hull of a boat to an RV. A well made hull has the structure in it to secure everything from the forces of slamming into waves.

The forces applied to these vehicles when driving upwards of 80 MPH is tremendous, add in the rough roads, all the bouncing and it is actually amazing how well they hold up.

However that is no excuse for poor joinery, and shoddy QC. A lot of what goes in is slapped in place as fast as possible. Unlike the auto industry, there are very few manufacturers of RV components, so you get what you get, because that is all you can get, regardless of the price of the whole unit.

Another fact against the RV industry that they can't help, quantity. Auto industry builds millions of vehicles a year, the RV industry builds maybe an eighth if that? Quite a bit of the building could be automated, but the cost of automation would far exceed the returns only because they would not be able to build enough units to break even.

Think about the F150 Assembly line built in 2014, had to have cost at least a Billion to rip out everything and replace it in only 8 weeks time, but it pays for itself by being able to produce a truck every 53 seconds. Like the truck assembly line, there are a lot of hand installed parts in an RV, but unlike a truck, not every component goes in the exact same place.

Lets face it if we want an RV to have the same quality as what comes out of an automotive assembly line, a basic no slide RV would cost 100K instead of 10K. It is just financially impossible to build a real high quality RV that we expect them to. To do that, then there would need to be an RV in everyones driveway.

[BehindBars]

Originally Posted by Bhrava

Food for thought. Put your home on wheels and travel 70MPH on these crappy roads and see how long it will last. No matter how well built you think your home is, it will fall apart rather quickly once moving. You can't compare a solid fiberglassed hull of a boat to an RV. A well made hull has the structure in it to secure everything from the forces of slamming into waves.

The forces applied to these vehicles when driving upwards of 80 MPH is tremendous, add in the rough roads, all the bouncing and it is actually amazing how well they hold up.

However that is no excuse for poor joinery, and shoddy QC. A lot of what goes in is slapped in place as fast as possible. Unlike the auto industry, there are very few manufacturers of RV components, so you get what you get, because that is all you can get, regardless of the price of the whole unit.

Another fact against the RV industry that they can't help, quantity. Auto industry builds millions of vehicles a year, the RV industry builds maybe an eighth if that? Quite a bit of the building could be automated, but the cost of automation would far exceed the returns only because they would not be able to build enough units to break even.

Think about the F150 Assembly line built in 2014, had to have cost at least a Billion to rip out everything and replace it in only 8 weeks time, but it pays for itself by being able to produce a truck every 53 seconds. Like the truck assembly line, there are a lot of hand installed parts in an RV, but unlike a truck, not every component goes in the exact same place.

Lets face it if we want an RV to have the same quality as what comes out of an automotive assembly line, a basic no slide RV would cost 100K instead of 10K. It is just financially impossible to build a real high quality RV that we expect them to. To do that, then there would need to be an RV in everyones driveway.

I agree that if putting your home on wheels and travel on crappy roads, it wouldn’t last long. But, that just illustrates that, if we want quality to improve, RV manufacturers need to stop building RVs like homes are built.

As to your last paragraph, I would pay 100K for a high quality RV built like something on an automobile assembly line, but I think the main point of this thread is that today, you can pay as much as you want, but a high quality RV is simply not available to purchase at any price.

[SmackIt]

Originally Posted by dmctlc

And in 2017 over 500 million RVs were sold. That's in one year. It may not come close to the auto industry numbers but it's significant.

Uhmm... what?

That's like every family in America buying 4 RV's in one year. The real number was around half a million.

Although the economic contribution of the RV industry is substantial, there's another significant downside to the quality problems. Every family that loses a vacation, and every minute wasted dealing with quality problems, is a net loss to the consumer.