2013 21SS tongue weight - What the fudge...

[kandl]

Originally Posted by DieselDrax

Hitched up and ready to go during our trip. Does this truck look like it's 620LB over GVWR and 240LB over RAWR? Doesn't look overweight to me and I would've never thought weight were an issue had I not gone across 2 different scales and had similar weights both times.

Truck looks perfect! Tows ok, or so you say. Go camping!

[Bama Rambler]

According to the specs I found for the 21SS the GVWR is 5500 and the hitch weight starts out right at 600 lbs., so it's not hard to believe that you could have 625 lbs. of tongue weight when loaded.

Also remember that your hitch itself weighs about 100 lbs.

[BigH]

The weight ticket makes sense to me using your numbers:

Truck gvwr is 6200.
You in the truck is 5130. Leaving 1070 payload.
Wife kids and stuff you listed (980) / minus your weight from 980 is 760 (because you know you and truck were 5130). Subtract 760 from 1070 payload remaining and you have 310lbs.

You only have 310lbs remaining before adding the hitch and trailer...

[walaby]

Originally Posted by BigH

The weight ticket makes sense to me using your numbers:

Truck gvwr is 6200.
You in the truck is 5130. Leaving 1070 payload.
Wife kids and stuff you listed (980) / minus your weight from 980 is 760 (because you know you and truck were 5130). Subtract 760 from 1070 payload remaining and you have 310lbs.

You only have 310lbs remaining before adding the hitch and trailer...

The most straightforward answer thus far.


Mike

[Tom48]

Originally Posted by rockfordroo

I suggest you go back to the scales and do a complete weighing. Otherwise, everyone's guessing.

Features, options on the truck and people load, may be decieving you on the net payload. I'm with the commenter who said load the truck, family and all. Put the stuff that you travel with in that shell, throw in the WDH and head over to the scale, before you ASS U ME that the problem is all tongue weight. My wife's purse and crap in the kid's backpacks would make a major difference, not accounted for in your original theoretical planning.

[babock]

Originally Posted by walaby

The most straightforward answer thus far.


Mike

I agree. Out of curiosity, what does your payload sticker say? My bet is around 1200#

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by BigH

The weight ticket makes sense to me using your numbers:



Truck gvwr is 6200.

You in the truck is 5130. Leaving 1070 payload.

Wife kids and stuff you listed (980) / minus your weight from 980 is 760 (because you know you and truck were 5130). Subtract 760 from 1070 payload remaining and you have 310lbs.



You only have 310lbs remaining before adding the hitch and trailer...

Originally Posted by walaby

The most straightforward answer thus far.


Mike

Right, I never said the numbers didn’t add up. The bewilderment is with how much weight the 21SS seems to be putting on the tongue compared to the axle weight/total weight. Either of you have a trailer with ~18% on the hitch? I can’t be the first one finding this out about the 21SS but I can’t find anyone else complaining either.

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by babock

I agree. Out of curiosity, what does your payload sticker say? My bet is around 1200#

1,289 is what I started with.

Who’d have thought I’d need a 3/4 ton truck to have enough payload to tow a little 21SS and take my family places? [emoji848][emoji15][emoji23][emoji24]

[babock]

Originally Posted by DieselDrax

Right, I never said the numbers didn’t add up. The bewilderment is with how much weight the 21SS seems to be putting on the tongue compared to the axle weight/total weight. Either of you have a trailer with ~18% on the hitch? I can’t be the first one finding this out about the 21SS but I can’t find anyone else complaining either.

My trailer is just a little bit heavier than yours. My tongue weight is currently 780# loaded before my battery move. I don't have any kids or a dog to worry about either and I was concerned even with my 1700# payload. I would like to some days tow with water which will add another 100# or so to my tongue.

Either the trailer or truck needs to be changed out.

[Miweber929]

Originally Posted by DieselDrax

1,289 is what I started with.

Who’d have thought I’d need a 3/4 ton truck to have enough payload to tow a little 21SS and take my family places? [emoji848][emoji15][emoji23][emoji24]

I’m going through this process now with my 24ws and Silverado. It’s closer than I imagined it would be.

[rockfordroo]

Are you being fooled by "dry weight?" Dry weights are a marketing tool; your TT will never weigh a dry weight.

Looking at the FR website, your dry weight is 4795 lb and dry hitch weight is 600 lbs, or 12.5% of the dry weight. CCC is 1805 lbs. So your GVWR is 4795 + 1805 = 6600 lbs. So if your tongue weight percentage stayed the same 12.5%, I'd expect your tongue weight to be about 825 lbs. Now add a 100 lb WDH and you're at 925 lbs.

So if you really only have 310 lbs left as BigH stated, you're seriously overloaded on payload, by about 600 lbs. Most TVs go out on payload before they ever get close to exceeding "tow capacity."

[babock]

My dry weight spec for my trailer is 4788 and spec is 635 for tongue weight. As I said before, my actual tongue weight is 780 measured with my Sureline scale. There would be NO way I would expect to tow mine with your truck and we have nearly identical spec'd trailers and I am missing 2 kids and a dog.


I have a friend who has a 1/2T Ram and he was looking around for 5th wheels the other day. I had to point out the payload sticker on his truck for him and give him the bad news about those plans.

[rockfordroo]

You should also check out your GCWR. It will be in your owners manual. I searched for your owners manual, but only got one for gassers, not the diesel. You should have a diesel owners manual or perhaps a supplemental manual for the diesel.

Your total weight, truck + trailer, is 11460 lbs. Make sure this is less than your GCWR.

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by rockfordroo

Are you being fooled by "dry weight?" Dry weights are a marketing tool; your TT will never weigh a dry weight.

Looking at the FR website, your dry weight is 4795 lb and dry hitch weight is 600 lbs, or 12.5% of the dry weight. CCC is 1805 lbs. So your GVWR is 4795 + 1805 = 6600 lbs. So if your tongue weight percentage stayed the same 12.5%, I'd expect your tongue weight to be about 825 lbs. Now add a 100 lb WDH and you're at 925 lbs.

So if you really only have 310 lbs left as BigH stated, you're seriously overloaded on payload, by about 600 lbs. Most TVs go out on payload before they ever get close to exceeding "tow capacity."

No, wasn’t going by dry weights. My trailer GVWR is 5,600LB per the sticker on the trailer. Going by 12% GVWR on the hitch and WDH properly adjusted I expected the truck to see less than 450LB actual at the absolute most. I could work with that for a long trip and should be under that by a bit for shorter trips with less gear in the truck and trailer.

Seems the placement of the axles and the layout makes this trailer add a disproportionate amount of weight to the tongue when loading it.

Originally Posted by babock

My dry weight spec for my trailer is 4788 and spec is 635 for tongue weight. As I said before, my actual tongue weight is 780 measured with my Sureline scale. There would be NO way I would expect to tow mine with your truck and we have nearly identical spec'd trailers and I am missing 2 kids and a dog.


I have a friend who has a 1/2T Ram and he was looking around for 5th wheels the other day. I had to point out the payload sticker on his truck for him and give him the bad news about those plans.

That’s the thing, it tows great. Zero white knuckle driving, even in high crosswinds.

It comes down to safety and being that much over the limits is asking for trouble. It was never about having a poor towing experience, which I have had with other combos.

Originally Posted by rockfordroo

You should also check out your GCWR. It will be in your owners manual. I searched for your owners manual, but only got one for gassers, not the diesel. You should have a diesel owners manual or perhaps a supplemental manual for the diesel.

Your total weight, truck + trailer, is 11460 lbs. Make sure this is less than your GCWR.

I’m 1,240LB below GCWR which is 12,700.

[walaby]

Your first post in the thread says wife, kids, dogs, and topper weight about 500.


Your post on page two says they weigh 760 (980-220lbs for you).


Sounds like that's where your extra weight is.


12% of 5600 (GVWR of TT) is 672. While I agree weight also transfers to the trailer axles, not sure 220 lbs would transfer to trailer. With my setup, approx 10% of tongue weight is transfered to the Trailer axles, which if that's the same in your case, you're still looking at about 600 lbs handled by the truck.


If you keep it setup as is, make sure your tires are capable of that load. Exceeding axle rating, you may be exceeding tire rating as well.


Mike

[BigH]

Originally Posted by DieselDrax

Right, I never said the numbers didn’t add up...

There is no way I can say this without coming across as a jerk -I work with machines, numbers and all the personality profiles taken through work training tell me I'm insensitive...So...

I thought you missed something because in your opening post you stated something to the effect that you thought you would be close but just under.

When you know you only have 300lbs left in cargo capacity and have a trailer with a 600lb dry tongue weight...it is not going to be close after adding the hitch and loading the trailer even if you take the juice boxes away from the kids.

Time for a new truck or trailer.

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by walaby

Your first post in the thread says wife, kids, dogs, and topper weight about 500.

Your post on page two says they weigh 760 (980-220lbs for you).


Sounds like that's where your extra weight is.

That must have been a typo as wife, kids, dog, topper come out to about 600LB, not 500LB. Whoops. The extra weight above in the 980 I also mentioned in that post, there was about 150LB of tools, fluids, and chairs in the bed of the truck as well.

12% of 5600 (GVWR of TT) is 672. While I agree weight also transfers to the trailer axles, not sure 220 lbs would transfer to trailer. With my setup, approx 10% of tongue weight is transfered to the Trailer axles, which if that's the same in your case, you're still looking at about 600 lbs handled by the truck.

Sure, it varies, but what I've seen indicates that a properly setup WDH should move 33% back to the trailer axles.

And I also agree the amount of tongue weight should be less, but this particular trailer is putting around 920LB on the truck with the WDH bars on. See why I'm ? Even you think the hitch weight should be a lot less than it is. That's what is hitting me in the face.

If you keep it setup as is, make sure your tires are capable of that load. Exceeding axle rating, you may be exceeding tire rating as well.


Mike

Already checked the tires, they aren't the limiting factor. The frame is fully boxed and is quite substantial so I don't think that is the limiting factor. The rear axle is apparently built by Dana for GM and is considered to be a "Dana 46" but that doesn't match what Dana says a 46 is. In all honestly, taking a SWAG, I suspect the limitation is the rear shocks/springs and the limit is to try and prevent bottoming out on the bump stops when going over rough road/bumps which could lead to axle or frame damage if hit hard enough (something I've seen happen with someone else's truck some years ago).

It's tough being in the position of knowing you're overweight but also being extremely happy with how it tows. Ignorance truly is bliss sometimes.

[WolfWhistle]

DieselDrax. You are a smart guy and know this truck probably isn't really up to the task. You know nothing is going to increase payload (haven't seen GCVWR to know if under of over, even if I suspect it is also probably over). If I was in your shoes, I would make sure tires and wheels are rated above whats sitting on them and the rear axle is under RAWR. Towing and GCVWR to me is secondary. You seem to be trying to figure how GMC limits the CCC of this truck. That will be a mystery. But limited it is. Not sure if you said, what you were using for WDH / sway control, other than its working. Save where you can, get creative... look at everything thats in the truck or in the trailer. I should parrot, a trip to the cat scale getting loaded truck only with WDH hardware in the bed and then truck and trailer (steer - drive - trailer) WITHOUT WDH engaged... then you will know if it is even remotely possible to load differently, or optimize WDH differently. Get it as light as you can, leave home the cast iron cookware, the 150# tool box, empty the tanks, leave off the topper... fill the tires with helium, whatever it takes. Maybe you can get RAWR and GVWR under the ratings, I hope you can. Best wishes, WW

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by walaby

If your original numbers were with just you in the truck, and the TT hooked up, then I can understand your confusion.


As others said, you need to get truck only weight, loaded up, ready to go, with passengers etc... And get second weight with TT hooked up, with no WD hitch. Only way (weigh) you're going to figure it out.


You can do it with just you, but then you have to make sure you know the weights of all the other stuff (passengers, dogs, etc...).


Other than your one weight, you're estimating everything. You may not be as accurate as you think with your estimates.

The scale weights were fully loaded with everyone and everything in and on. Ultimately, that's the weight that matters the most but I know what you're saying. I'm not estimating anyone's weights, so that's not inaccurate. I know what the shell weighs. The 150LB of "stuff" in the bed of the truck was a high estimate, in reality it was probably closer to 100LB but I haven't gotten the scale out to weigh the small tool bag and plastic container with 6qts of oil, tow strap, shovel, etc.

None of the scale weights were with just me in the truck. The attached scale weights were ready to roll and had a full tank of fuel as well.

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by WolfWhistle

DieselDrax. You are a smart guy and know this truck probably isn't really up to the task. You know nothing is going to increase payload (haven't seen GCVWR to know if under of over, even if I suspect it is also probably over). If I was in your shoes, I would make sure tires and wheels are rated above whats sitting on them and the rear axle is under RAWR. Towing and GCVWR to me is secondary. You seem to be trying to figure how GMC limits the CCC of this truck. That will be a mystery. But limited it is. Not sure if you said, what you were using for WDH / sway control, other than its working. Save where you can, get creative... look at everything thats in the truck or in the trailer. I should parrot, a trip to the cat scale getting loaded truck only with WDH hardware in the bed and then truck and trailer (steer - drive - trailer) WITHOUT WDH engaged... then you will know if it is even remotely possible to load differently, or optimize WDH differently. Get it as light as you can, leave home the cast iron cookware, the 150# tool box, empty the tanks, leave off the topper... fill the tires with helium, whatever it takes. Maybe you can get RAWR and GVWR under the ratings, I hope you can. Best wishes, WW

Thanks, I think I mentioned GCWR earlier and it's 12,700LB which I am well under. Definitely didn't have 150LB of tools, just a tool bag with common wrenches and sockets.

WDH is an e2 with 1000/10000 bars. Works great in terms of towing experience and getting the front of the truck back to the correct height.

Cast iron cookware, hah. I bought a stainless kit with a pan and 3 pots that nest together and have one handle that moves between them (Think camping cookset but a little bigger).

There are definitely things that we can remove that we didn't use on our last trip, they're not heavy but at this point a pound is a pound.

I'm thinking that I'll also give the Anderson hitch a try, not only is it a lot lighter but it's easier to adjust for a given load.

I've already checked the tire ratings, that's not a problem.

I know I can get the truck under RAWR and stay under FAWR, it's only GVWR that's going to give me trouble.

I always like a good problem and project, but this...sometimes physics just wins. We shall see.