Surge protector at home

[Tx2Stepn]

Originally Posted by Cowracer

Not really sure how you can get 140 volt like that. Maybe they changed the xfmr and used the wrong tap??? Are you rural? If so, you might have a SWER (Single Wire Earth Return) distribution system. You see it in sparsely populated areas due to the fact that its cheap. Like the name says, you only need one wire to provide service. Your step-down xfmr has 2 secondarys, wound in opposite directions with the neutral tied directly to ground. That way you can get one half of the 240 off one secondary and the other half from the other one. They can be a little dicey as you are relying on a ground rod to provide neutral between the two. In real dry soil, the current flow in the ground rod may be insufficient, causing the ground rod to "float" at a higher voltage than true ground, effectively reducing voltage from hot to neutral. But I don't see how it can raise voltage...

My lake lot is SWER severed and despite me knowing what the hell I am doing (electrically speaking) , I still have issues running a GFCI in the cabin. My A/C units came with GFCI built into the cords and I had to cut them off and just go to straight plugs because they would trip from time to time. Its easy to tell if you are on a SWER. You will see only one xfmr on the pole, with a single wire going to it from the overhead lines.

If you are really worried about low voltage, an Auto-transformer would be ideal, however it will use more of the already limited power available in your branch circuit to raise your voltage, at the expense of possibly lowering voltage available to other campers on the same circuit. This has been know to create tense situations between campers with auto-transformers and guys with EMS systems that trip off because of the voltage drop. Guys like me without either don't seem to care.

Tim

Yes I'm rural and I have no idea how they did it either, but when we called them they came and fixed it pdq. We were lucky that it didn't cause more issues, but now we know to ck it after the electric company "fixes" it.

[Scrapper]

Cowracer, You have missed many of the features of the Progressive Industries hard wired EMS. For one thing the digital display gives more information than a "Brighter 3-Color LED Indicator" could ever give. Below you find a write up of the benefits and features of the PI-HW30C and PI-HW50C EMS. With you being an Electrical Engineer some of the information you should already know.


Progressive Industries Hard Wired Benefits and Features

PI-EMS protects your RV from more than surge and low voltage conditions. Many people do not know the difference between a power surge and a high voltage condition.

A Surge is the sudden input of voltage that consists of voltages that last a few milliseconds and can be up to several thousand volts. The surge protection circuit will divert this sudden voltage input, thus protecting any thing on the output side of the unit. This condition can be caused by lightening strikes, power transformer failure, shut down of high amperage appliances, or many RV'ers disconnecting power at the same time. This condition can also be caused by the air conditioners of several RV's cycling off at the same time.

A High Voltage condition is the gradual rise of the incoming voltage to values higher than 132 volts. This condition can last from a few seconds to hours. This condition can be caused by power source problems such as power generation problems, power transmission problems and transformer failures where they are supplying output higher than normal.

A Low Voltage condition is the drop in supplied power. This condition is normally caused by the power supplier not keeping up with the demand.

The Surge Gard brand of EMS needs to be returned to the manufacturer for service in case of failure.

A Progressive Industries Hard Wired EMS has replaceable modules, you don't need to send the unit back for service.

Below are the features of the PI-EMS.

High/Low Voltage Protection
Whenever AC power falls below 104 volts, or rises above 132 volts, the EMS automatically shuts down power to the RV. The EMS will monitor the power and once the AC power rises above 104 volts, or drops below the 132 volt level, the time delay indicator flashes for the preset time and then automatically restores power to the RV.
Time Delay for A/C Compressor
If AC power is interrupted, or the EMS detects a fault condition, the built in time delay is activated. There are two settings on the EMS: one is 136 seconds (02:16), and the other is 15 seconds. Consult your air conditioner manual to see if it has a time delay built in. If so, use the 15 second delay, if not; use the 136-second delay. The factory setting is 15 seconds.
5 Mode Surge Protection
This feature provides full surge protection L-N, L-N, L-G, L-L and N-G. Total Joule rating is 3,580 and 88,000A surge current. Response time of <1 nano second.
Surge Indicator
In the event of a power surge and the surge protector circuit is damaged within the EMS, L-N or L-G, the digital display error code will read E-10. This indicates that the EMS needs to be serviced.
Reverse Polarity Protection
If AC power is a reverse polarity condition, the EMS will not allow power to the RV and the error code will read E1.
Open Neutral Protection
If AC power has an open neutral condition, the display will not light, and the EMS will not allow power to the RV.
Open Ground Protection
If AC power has an open ground condition, the EMS will read an error code of E2, and power will not be allowed to the RV.
AC Frequency Protection
If AC power frequency deviates plus/minus 9 hertz from 60 cycles per second, the EMS will shut down AC power. An Error Code of E7 will be displayed when the frequency is high; and an Error Code of E8 will be displayed when frequency is low.
Accidental 240V Protection
If 240 volts is detected when plugging into AC power, the EMS will NOT allow power to the RV. If this condition occurs while power is applied to the RV, the EMS shuts off power instantly. The display will read the voltage and E-3 for the error. (NEVER BYPASS THE EMS WHEN THIS OCCURS.)
Remote Display
Continuously scrolls the AC power information, including voltage, current, frequency, error codes and previous errors. Each reading is displayed for two (2) seconds.
Previous Error Code
This feature tells the user what the previous error was and why power was interrupted to the RV. To read a Previous Error Code, put a “P” in front of the “E” code. This is only displayed if an actual error occurs. The error is deleted when the power is disconnected from the EMS.
Bypass
This switch is located on the remote panel, and allows the user to bypass the computer circuit in the EMS in the event of computer failure, this allowing AC power into the RV. This does not disable the surge protection portion of the EMS; however, all other features are disabled.
Modular Design
Replacement parts are designed for simple plug and play, making repairs extremely user friendly.
Microprocessor Controlled
The computer and remote display are driven by state of the art microprocessors that are programmed with software to drive the entire EMS unit.

Error Code Chart
E0 : Normal Condition
E1 : Reverse Polarity Condition (hot and neutral wires reversed)
E2 : Open Ground (ground wire is not connected)
E3 : Line 1 Voltage High (Line voltage above 132)
E4 : Line 1 Voltage Low (Line voltage below 104 volts)
E5 : Line 2 Voltage High (Line voltage above 132) - not available on 30 Amp models.
E6 : Line 2 Voltage Low (Line voltage below 104 volts) - not available on 30 Amp models.
E7 : Line Frequency High (Line frequency above 69 cycles per second)
E8 : Line Frequency Low (Line frequency below 51 cycles per second)
E9 : Data Link Down - Remote Display models only.
E10 : Replace Surge Protector Module

NOTE: If the EMS cuts the power to the RV it will show a PE code following the E code when the power is restored. This denotes the previous error or why the EMS shut down. Example: The EMS cuts power for low voltage on Line 1, and then the power is restored. The Error Code reads E0, but the PE code reads PE4 which tells the user low voltage was the reason for the EMS previously cutting power. This PE error code will be deleted when power is disconnected from the EMS.

[Johnfort]

Originally Posted by Tx2Stepn

We use ours just in case we are hit by lightning, which has happened several times where we live.

Time to move!

[Tx2Stepn]

Originally Posted by Johnfort

Time to move!

Nope, we all make concessions for where we live. I have 8 acres total. My son lives on 4 and I live on the other 4. My neighbors garage is not in my back door. Love where I live!

[cavie]

Originally Posted by Cowracer

So what do you do, then? Leave?

Some people seem to think that the surge protector or EMS (same thing to me) will CORRECT a low volt condition. It will not. It will just shut off your electricity (probably when i doesnt even need to) and leave you in the dark.

One would think that a system loaded up so bad to drop to 86% nominal voltage would be blowing branch circuit fuses like crazy.

Tim

EMS DOES NOT correct a low voltage condition. It STOPS current flow untill the voltage is within tollerance. 108/132. EMS is VERY different than a Surge protecter. I sugjest you Research it. Surge protector and ems are far from being the same thing.

I did not have to leave my site. I installed a Autotransformer on my pedistal and solved my problem. I would recomend anybody with 108 voltage to leave or run the risk of A/C damage. In my case, as in most, the problem comes from park poor maintenance and or instlation and not Power Company problems.


45 year Licensed Master Electrician.

[dbledan]

I would tend to agree that not much will stop lightning strike nearby. However, I have had 2 issues that caused surges that were not lightning and not caused by the power companies negligence.

One was a transformer hit by a car that was on the ground for buried lines. It fried many items in people's homes that were connected to it including mine.

The second lightning struck a transformer on a distribution pole half a mile away. Sure, it fried everything nearby but grounding did its thing and limited the damage. What made it more wide spread was the transformer caught the pole on fire and breaking it in half twisting the phases repeatedly. At this point I had the surge suppressor on the house. My neighbors again lost many things that did not like the voltage swings but I lost nothing because the surge guard could hold that at bay.

Not that the second one would happen in a campground but the first one could pretty easily given the layouts and driving abilities I have seen some posses... hitting their power box backing in.

Voltage drop I have seen enough to trip my EMS. Is this enough to truly shorten my AC compressor life? I will never know but I do feel better even if it means I am hot. For me it just means fire up the generator or go home if DW cannot live without it.

The reason for the surge suppressor at home is more for the extra insurance than anything else. No deductable. Since it has happend more than once and I cannot seem to change my luck I hedge.

I do respect your opinion and would normally agree but for me it is worth the extra cost. $350 once Vs. $1500 insurance deductable twice...like you said it doesn't cover every scenario but enough to cover my costs so far. Your milage may vary.

[Ejetter]

I had a plug in surge protector on my old camper. Some of these campgrounds are notorious for having a poor electrical grid. One day last summer when it was in the 90s over a holiday weekend, my SP kept tripping due to low voltage from everyone running their A/C units. This can be just as damaging as a surge. I blew out a refer and H2O heater due to poor wiring. Be safe and use it!

[Cowracer]

Guys....

I am not advocating that anyone not use a EMS system. If you feel the need to use one, even if it's for peace of mind, then by all means do so.

I am just stating my opinion, as a guy who knows electricity, that these provide little or no real-world value for their cost. I know, I know.... People will flood me with stories on how their EMS saved them from a catastrophic electrical failure, and that's great. If you feel they provide you a valuable service, then by all means, buy the biggest, most expensive unit that has the flashiest LED's you can find. But for me and my money, I'll pass on them.

Now if you excuse me, I have to finish hooking up my nitrogen generator so I can inflate my tires at home.

Tim

[Scrapper]

Originally Posted by Cowracer

Guys....

< Snip>
Now if you excuse me, I have to finish hooking up my nitrogen generator so I can inflate my tires at home.

Tim

Tim, I know you are saying this in jest but I have to point out the only thing I use nitrogen for is fertilizer.

While not in a RV, I have seen the surge caused by a chest freezer compressor turning off corrupt the data being written to a HDD in a computer plugged into the same circuit.

[dward51]

Let me throw another angle into the original question.....

Some years back, I contacted my power company about adding a 2nd main panel in my basement for a shop. They confirmed the wiring placed in ground to my meter could deliver 400amps and I could add a 2nd 150amp panel if I changed out the meter can. They provided me with a new meter can with two taps and I had a licensed electrician do the install (with permit, inspections). I also had a Panamax commercial whole house surge suppressor installed at the main feed so both panels were protected. New welded ground rods were also installed.

With the current setup, the RV outlet I installed where I store my trailer is fully protected on the existing system. So is there any point in using the portable unit on the RV when it's plugged in at home?

[Alben]

I know something that the Progressive Industries EMS won't protect against:

Earlier this year I purchased a hardwired EMS-HW30C RV Surge & Electrical Protector.

While camping this past fall I came across a scenario where I feel an improvement could be made to the EMS-HW30C. The campground power pedestal I was plugged into had a faulty 30 Amp breaker. At times the power to the camper was intermittent, like the breaker in the power pedestal was arcing. I verified that it was not the 30A plug itself, but determined it was the 30A breaker. As such, the EMS relay was chattering very fast. I could hear it chattering.

Apparently the power did not drop out long enough for the EMS to do the 15 second wait to reapply power.

I have sent an email (twice) to Power Products LLC. (the owner of the Progressive Industries brand). Asking them if it would be possible for a microcontroller firmware update to fix this. Asking them if it would be possible for the microcontroller to detect this very fast power/no power chatter and disconnect the power relay and wait for stable power to return before energizing the power relay.

I received no response from them, so six weeks later I emailed them again. Their email response was "will pass this information along to our Electrical Engineer."

I have not heard from them since.

B.S. Electrical & Electronics Engineering - M.S. Computer Science / Information Assurance.

[harleyfltri]

Originally Posted by Cowracer

Offering a contrary opinion...

I am a 25+ year experienced Electrical Engineer (specializing in Control, automation and power distribution systems) and I'd never waste my money on anything like a "surge protector". I've never had one on anything I own (Camper, household or industrial) and never had anything damaged by a surge. The only benefit they provide is telling you when your pedestal is wired incorrectly and a cheap, $20 tester will do that.

Lets look at what these things are supposed to do for you: (taken directly from a popular brands website)



The first two are easily tested by that $20 tester. Surge failure indicator? OK we'll put that one aside for a moment. Thermally protected. You are already protected by the fuse or breaker in the pedestal. The rest are just fluff.

So what is a surge? Honestly I have no idea. I have never seen one in my life (and I got about $40k worth of monitoring equipment on my incoming lines at work). I have only rarely seen a voltage dip and those are usually not that long lasting and occur if a line breaks (like a car hits a pole and the line breaks and arcs across the air gap till the substation trips). I imagine that a substandard or poorly designed electrical system in a campground could possibly have a voltage problem, but I don't see how these things can correct that. They can't make up the low voltage.

Power companies work awfully hard to keep the mains within tolerance. ANSI C84.1-2016 standard allows up to +105% and -90% for class A Utilization and +105.8 and -86.67% on Class B Utilization. (B has a rated short-time withstand current, A does not). That means you can have down to 108 volts (RMS) on a nominal 120 outlet and still be in tolerance on a Class A system. A few voltage-sensative things might be impacted. Like an old CRT TV would have the picture shrink a bit and your microwave might hum differently, but it won't hurt anything. But all modern electronics use switching power supplies to make DC (usually far under 120volt) that actually powers the devices, and they are pretty tolerant to low voltage.

'Surges' for the sake of this discussion are (I suppose) to be high-voltage transients on the incoming lines. Again, I have never, not once seen a high voltage condition on my incoming at work. My main substation is set to actually trip off at 106% voltage and again, I have never seen it do that.

Now when some people speak of "surges" they actually mean lighting strikes on power lines. This is exceedingly rare. The power companies do not want their equipment destroyed by lightning strikes. The power lines are usually protected by "Static lines" that shunt lightning strikes to ground. A lightning bolt can travel thru 20 miles of air (a good insulator) so the 4 or 5 inches of plastic that is your "Surge suppressor" isn't going to do much good to stop it if lightning actually struck a power line. The one popular unit is rated at "3850" Joule. That is minuscule, or about one watt-hour. A typical lightning bolt has over 1000 megajoule (1 billion joules) of energy in it. Your little hunk of plastic would vaporize, and the ionized gasses from it would provide a conductive path thru it. Then again, you'd probably have bigger problems than your DVD player getting fried at this point. Look at it this way, how many times have you sat at home in a thunderstorm and watched the lights get brighter due to lightning? I bet its about zero.

Those cheesy "Surge suppressors" that you used to get to plug in your PC or fax machine are simply MOV (Metal Oxide Varistors) that turn conductive at a set voltage. They usually set them a volt or two above nominal 120. Anytime you exceed that voltage (and mind you, you would still be in tolerance to the ANSI spec) would cause the MOV to conduct straight across the hot and neutral legs. It would blow apart, make some smoke and a flash, maybe melt the case a little and trip the breaker. When that happened, people would stare in astonishment on how that little plug-in device saved their PC from obliteration from a lightning strike. I imagine that anyone with an RV style surge protector feels the same way when it trips out in the middle of the night and takes down your whole AC system. Hell... If I designed them, I would make them nuisance trip every so often so people feel like it saved their electrical bacon, and that they got some worth for their money, other than a few blinky LEDs.

Anyway... I know I won't convince anyone to jettison their surge suppressor. But just remember, its like that travel insurance you get from the machine at the airport. It makes you feel better, but in the end, it really does nothing at all.

Tim

Sorry Tim but I really need to disagree with you. Lost 2 Black and Decker under counter coffee pots and a an electronic fan prior to installing the EMS-HW30C surge protector. No TV's or other electronics had any issues. Found out that just plugging into power caused issues at some places but the big one was from the generator having an open ground. Since adding the surge suppressor nothing has been destroyed. I felt the same way you do until it started happening to me and I corrected it.

[Johnfort]

I had to replace 3 circuit boards in 3 years on one of two identical garage door openers. When I put in a surge protector in the circuit 4 years ago it stopped.

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by HangDiver

A few weeks ago the power went out at our house (which is a rare event). When it came back on there was a loud "POP". A couple of surge protectors in the house were toasted along with our wifi router (which was connected to one of the surge protectors).

Even though the voltage in your home may generally be stable, the EMS will protect your RV from those unlikely events that can still happen. I would use it.

Sounds like someone "opened the neutral" on you power feed and the surge protectors were hit with 240V.

Same thing happened at our office when an electrician started trying to isolate some cubical circuits by removing wire-nuts on connected wires. When he opened the neutral circuit a dozen or more computers suddenly had smoke coming out of them. Without the neutral no more 120 V, just 240 volts with the items being plugged in providing the circuit for it to flow.

I'd contact the power company for compensation. Could have been one of their crews or a contractor getting ready to hook up a new house, etc.

I used to live in Parker and found IREA to be very pleasant to deal with. If they're still a Co-op they should be. Their customers OWN the utility.

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by dbledan

You would be suprised how many people come on here after having a 30A outlet installed only to find out it was wired for 220...

Knowing how many times this has happened I decided to wire my own RV Pedestal. Works great and I saved a wheelbarrow load of money to boot.

[sunnyinfla]

I installed a residential surge protector inside my camper....cheaper than plug in one's and you don't have to worry about it getting stolen like the plug in ones...

[BandJCarm]

I have a 50 and a 30 pedestal in driveway (30 was for previous camper). Many times my elec company (our city) has low voltage, even at home. I'd never know without this thing. I don't want a permanent mount, if it fries inside my camper, that's not good. And then too hard to replace. If someone wants to steal it, come get it.

[jk510]

Surge protectors, I believe, are miss-named. They do nothing for voltage surges nor for high or low voltages. They only protect from spikes that only last a few micro seconds but can be very damaging to some electronics.
A proper EMS will protect you from spikes, high and low voltage, and mis-wiring.

[wanderer26]

I have both ems’s. A 30 amp which i use at home for the rv. A 50 amp that i use when we take out the fifth wheel 6 mos at a time. I take both with me when we travel with a 30 to 50 dog bone. Won’t leave home without them. I know my shore power is good at home as i installed it myself. It gives me peace of mind so it’s worthit to me.