Towing heavy 5th wheel with SRW

[JohnD10]

Originally Posted by zs325RES

Thanks again for the comments & feedback, especially those that share helpful, relevant personal experiences.


moose074
tonahttiu777
B and B


& NMWildcat


In doing my own research, I've found a SRW truck with specs that are promising as a TV for the 5er (SOB not to be named) which I'm considering.


Thanks again for the help.

Are you going to tell us what truck it is?

[Oakman]

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying it’s OK to drive an overloaded truck but, there are thousands of snowbirds that head to the warmer states every year and a huge number of those are hauling huge 5th wheels with overloaded trucks. Most of these drivers are in their 60’s and 70’s with less than stellar reflexes. If it was as dangerous as so many on this forum claim, then how come there aren’t hundreds of accidents every year involving 5th wheels?

One more point I’d like to bring up that I’ve can’t remember being mentioned. Is it really that dangerous if you have exceeded the truck’s GVWR but not even close on the GCWR? You never hear anyone mention the GCWR.

Most of the folks on this forum that are the so-called weight police are not talking from experience, they are merely basing their opinion on numbers.

Now when it comes to travel trailers...all bets are off.

[Barefoot68]

I have a 3500 chevy SRW and I would be over weight on axel, GVWR & GCWR. My 5er is 13,800 loaded and my truck with 5er attached is 10,700 so I have only 800lbs to spare. My GCWR is 24,500 and I would not haul what you are looking at. Better look at a bigger truck.

[zs325RES]

Here's some interesting GM specs on a 2016 3500HD Duramax Crew cab, 6’6” box (4WD) with single rear wheels:

Weight and payload (maximum ratings) – 3500HD [ref 2016 model]
GVWR (lb) 11500
Payload (lb) 4080


Trailering (maximum ratings per SAE J2807 Recommended Practices) – 3500HD
Trailer towing maximum with fifth-wheel or gooseneck hitch (lb) 17200


source: https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/che...6/3500-hd.html

[SlowrideHD]

I've towed the same camper in my signature line with an F250 2002 powerstroke. Did it pull it fine? Sure, lots of power in that old 7.3 diesel. Did it stop it real great on downhill situations where maybe someone ahead gets in a panic and slows WAY down for a curve? No, the 4x4 would shake on the front end unless careful control of the manual brake slide was added for additional trailer braking. Was I comfortable pulling it? Sure, I've towed farm equipment all my life on some pretty sketchy outfits. Was I overweight? Don't know, don't care (I'm not a member of the weight police).

Does my F350 6.7 Powerstroke do a better job? Heck yeah, no comparison! Like I barely have a load back there. No wind effect, no trailer sway, plenty of brakes and power. Stability is just outstanding.

[BSHGTO]

I think the last 3 sentences of the last post sums it up pretty well. The rest of you talk to your wife's and tell them it needs to be done.

[itat]

Originally Posted by Oakman

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying it’s OK to drive an overloaded truck but, there are thousands of snowbirds that head to the warmer states every year and a huge number of those are hauling huge 5th wheels with overloaded trucks. Most of these drivers are in their 60’s and 70’s with less than stellar reflexes. If it was as dangerous as so many on this forum claim, then how come there aren’t hundreds of accidents every year involving 5th wheels?

One more point I’d like to bring up that I’ve can’t remember being mentioned. Is it really that dangerous if you have exceeded the truck’s GVWR but not even close on the GCWR? You never hear anyone mention the GCWR.

Most of the folks on this forum that are the so-called weight police are not talking from experience, they are merely basing their opinion on numbers.

Now when it comes to travel trailers...all bets are off.

Good post, Oakman. I agree.

To each his/her own on this topic. But if you're the one that says something like, "I hardly know it's back there", just don't drive like it's not back there. Most of the snowbirds that Oakman mentions in his post probably drive very cautiously but we can't control what the other drivers will do.

[swampdonkey772]

One thing to remember. If you are overweight, get into an accident, and someone dies there is a VERY VERY VERY high likelyhood you will be charged with vehicular manslaughter and you will go to prison. I know in California it is a 100 percent chance you will be charged.

[Hclarkx]

Originally Posted by itat

Good post, Oakman. I agree.

To each his/her own on this topic. But if you're the one that says something like, "I hardly know it's back there", just don't drive like it's not back there. Most of the snowbirds that Oakman mentions in his post probably drive very cautiously but we can't control what the other drivers will do.

I agree. I get a kick out of those that put down us "weight police" with statements like "I've never had a close call" or "I haven't seen an accident" or "it feels fine to me" or "snowbirds never have RV accidents (how do they know that?)" to justify driving an overloaded TV. Of course most RV'ers driving overloaded rigs never have an accident! They've never been tested with 60 mph side winds in Wyoming or been brake-checked on a winding road by a driver that didn't like following a slow RV for a mile or any of many other events that can test the LIMITs of controllability of our trailers and TVs. As a wild guess, I'd say well over 99% of us will never get close to the limits of our equipment. Among those that do, those with proper equipment clearly have the best chance of survival ... and not killing/harming loved ones or innocent drivers nearby.

Of course most of us here have not experienced an accident and most never will. That does not prove an overloaded rig is safe. There is not a statistically relevant sample participating in or watching this thread to argue one way or the other.

The simple fact is that you and others are safer if your equipment is operated within ratings rather than beyond them. Having some margins makes you (and those you share the road with) safer yet. Engineers develop ratings largely through testing at levels most of us will, hopefully, never experience. Violate them if you wish, your passengers are your loved ones, not mine. And I will be watching for you and I will keep my distance.

[Hclarkx]

Originally Posted by Oakman

This is absolute BS. Please give us the details of an insurance company finding fault because of a fifth wheel overloading a truck.

It's not BS, just not accurate. Insurance companies don't need to find fault, the police report does that for them. Depending on your record and company and such, having an at-fault police report and major damage expense (or injury) could be very costly to you in the long run. The lawsuit against you could exceed your insurance coverage.

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by Oakman

One more point I’d like to bring up that I’ve can’t remember being mentioned. Is it really that dangerous if you have exceeded the truck’s GVWR but not even close on the GCWR? You never hear anyone mention the GCWR.

GCWR is about drivetrain load and safety. The TV isn't required to have brakes sufficient to stop the trailered load unless the trailer's GVWR is below the requirement of having trailer brakes, so that's not the safety issue I see.

Here's how I think about it...

RAWR and FAWR are about axle, suspension, tire, and wheel limits.
GVWR is about axle/suspension/tire/wheel, chassis/frame, and braking limits.
GCWR is about engine, transmission, and cooling limits combined with the ability of the truck to maintain control of the trailered load (wheelbase, track width/stability, etc).

I don't see many folks specifically mention GCWR directly, but when they talk about max tow rating they are indirectly talking about it. Tow rating is TV weight subtracted from GCWR. GM talks about tow rating this way...

TRAILER WEIGHT RATING
The trailer weight rating for any vehicle is determined by subtracting vehicle weight from GCWR. At the trailer weight rating for a properly equipped vehicle, you should be able to accelerate and merge with traffic, climb typical interstate grades at highway speeds, have control on varying road surfaces and stop adequately within a reasonable distance.

They imply the truck's braking do come into play, and I can see the truck needing to stop the trailer in an emergency should the trailer's brakes fail, but the brakes are not meant to ALWAYS stop the trailer as well except in the above scenario with a small trailer.

I suspect what you were hinting at is that there are likely people over GCWR and under GVWR/GAWRs and don't know or don't care. They check what their max tow rating is, check payload/pin weight, and as long as they don't exceed the GVWR/GAWRs assume they're good but don't realize max tow is with nothing more than a tank of fuel and a 175LB driver. Add people and gear and that counts against GVWR, GAWR, and GCWR, and as such reduces the tow rating.

It's not hard to believe how many people don't care about being grossly overweight. Just look at how many people drive drunk and don't wreck or kill anyone. To them it's about thinking they can handle it and being indestructible, even people that get nailed for DUI keep doing it over and over. There was an accident recently where a woman was booked for DUI, posted bail, and within hours drove drunk and killed someone.

Point is, logic and common sense get in the way of selfish behavior and the only way many people learn is by making their own mistakes. To them the risk is worth it because "it won't happen to me."

Which is probably what everyone that has ever towed overweight and then wrecked has said.

[JohnD10]

Originally Posted by Hclarkx

It's not BS, just not accurate. Insurance companies don't need to find fault, the police report does that for them. Depending on your record and company and such, having an at-fault police report and major damage expense (or injury) could be very costly to you in the long run. The lawsuit against you could exceed your insurance coverage.

Not to mention that it is very conceivable the insurance company could possibly deny coverage.

Just like they can if you leave your keys in a running car and it gets stolen.



I'll bet that if we were to all call our insurance agents and ask them if they would deny coverage if it was proven that we were towing over the tow specs of our tow vehicles, they would either not have an answer, or they would say that coverage could be denied.

But, the sad truth is that nobody here wants to ask that question since they won't want to alert their insurance agent to that fact.

[RCPatt]

You don't specify your reason for avoiding a dually. I pull a big 5er and would consider nothing else for stability and safety. Originally I looked at SRW because of the hassle of non-towing use of a dually. Since then I have found it really doesn't make that much of a difference. At times you have to compromise because of its' size but that's okay because usually your looking to protect your vehicle from the idiots out there both moving and in parking lots. Surprisingly the cost is barely negligible for a more capable unit (mine was only $1,000 more). With the diesel package the truck can pretty much pull anything. My RV would max out at 16,500 but I travel with the tanks empty so I'm around 15k or so at most. Never had any problems out on the highway among the big boys. Truck could handle around 23K. Safety is the most important thing for both you & yours plus the others out there on the road.

[walaby]

I'd have to say a 18K 5er is too much in my mind for a SRW.

Now, a 15K or so 5er, I believe is doable.

I have a 2017 RAM 3500 SRW,

Payload 4030
RAWR 7000

A 15K 5er, assuming 20% pin weight, would put 3K on the rear axle.

Axle weight (unloaded) is ~2900
Add 3K = 5900 - still 1100 below axle.

Also 3K pin would still leave 1K payload remaining.


So, 15-16K 5er seems reasonable for a 1 ton SRW... I can't see a 18K 5er meeting those specs.


Mike

[Brewhedd]

I bought a dually because I never again wanted to be limited by weight. I can tow a 16,000 lb 5th wheel, have a 50 gallon auxiliary tank in my bed along with a 5k generator and anything else that will fit in 8 feet. Add to that the extra stability and braking power and to me it was a no brainer.

[hogrules]

I retire in five years and plan on hitting the road. I can't afford to upgrade the TV and RV at the same time. Hoping to pay off one before buying the other. I was thinking the truck 1st. I have a 2014 RAM 1500 Big Horn CC SB with 40k miles on it. The truck is paid off and the mileage is below average. Good time to trade in. But before buying a new truck I have to decide on which RV I want to upgrade too. The one's I'm considering are

Ceder Creek 37RTH
GVWR 18000/Hitch Weight 3176/UVW 14190/CCC 3810

Montana High Country 380TH
GVWR 17000/Hitch Weight 3185/UVW 13300/CCC 3700

Vengeance Touring Edition 381L12-6
GVWR 19500/Hitch Weight 2924/UVW 14221/CCC 5279

I currently have a 2017 Grey Wolf 22rr.
GVWR 7686/Hitch Weight 686/UVW 4871/CCC 2815
I load about 1500lbs (Harley, gear, tools and other odds and ends)

I would love to buy a dually. As many stated above better power and stability. But I live in a development and dually trucks are not permitted. So I've been researching and found that Ford may have one that fits the bill. Look at the screen shots attached. What are your thoughts?

FYI - I looked at 1 ton SRW RAM and Chevy. Both max out at 17,200 for towing and about 3,800 lbs for payload.

[Cypressloser]

Originally Posted by hogrules

I retire in five years and plan on hitting the road. I can't afford to upgrade the TV and RV at the same time. Hoping to pay off one before buying the other. I was thinking the truck 1st. I have a 2014 RAM 1500 Big Horn CC SB with 40k miles on it. The truck is paid off and the mileage is below average. Good time to trade in. But before buying a new truck I have to decide on which RV I want to upgrade too. The one's I'm considering are

Ceder Creek 37RTH
GVWR 18000/Hitch Weight 3176/UVW 14190/CCC 3810

Montana High Country 380TH
GVWR 17000/Hitch Weight 3185/UVW 13300/CCC 3700

Vengeance Touring Edition 381L12-6
GVWR 19500/Hitch Weight 2924/UVW 14221/CCC 5279

I currently have a 2017 Grey Wolf 22rr.
GVWR 7686/Hitch Weight 686/UVW 4871/CCC 2815
I load about 1500lbs (Harley, gear, tools and other odds and ends)

I would love to buy a dually. As many stated above better power and stability. But I live in a development and dually trucks are not permitted. So I've been researching and found that Ford may have one that fits the bill. Look at the screen shots attached. What are your thoughts?

FYI - I looked at 1 ton SRW RAM and Chevy. Both max out at 17,200 for towing and about 3,800 lbs for payload.

I can't comment on the trailers, their respective pinweight or how they handle, but the payload numbers for the truck you marked in yellow are for the most basic truck with not a single option plus you still need to account for the weight of the passengers, 5th wheel hitch and other stuff. Also, if you are concerned about the GCWR, you will most definitely be over no matter how hard you try. You may be walking a very thin line IMHO. Knowing the difference between single and dual rear wheel trucks and how they handle I would not do it, even if you could make it work with the weights, driving in adverse situations or in the mountains, thanks but no thanks.

[Jeffjeeptj]

I have been through this very thing. I had a F350 supercab, 4wd, srw, diesel, 3.73 and was of the opinion I could pull anything based on the numbers. We bought a used 32’ older Avion 5th and pulled around the country when part timing. All went well. A job change put us into a full time situation.
Then we upgraded to a bigger heavier 5th and did fine when brought new and was empty when moved to the campground.

When we loaded up to go on the road it became obvious we were in weight trouble even with tires at full pressure and air bags in the rear suspension. I do not remember the exact scale weight, but the rear axle was close to 1000 pounds overweight with 1/2 tank of fuel. Acceleration and hills became a problem. Stopping on the flat was OK with the brake controller turned up.

We wound up trading up to a dually. I learned a valuable lesson both technical and financial.

[valleyduo]

Originally Posted by hogrules

I retire in five years and plan on hitting the road. I can't afford to upgrade the TV and RV at the same time. Hoping to pay off one before buying the other. I was thinking the truck 1st. I have a 2014 RAM 1500 Big Horn CC SB with 40k miles on it. The truck is paid off and the mileage is below average. Good time to trade in. But before buying a new truck I have to decide on which RV I want to upgrade too. The one's I'm considering are

Ceder Creek 37RTH
GVWR 18000/Hitch Weight 3176/UVW 14190/CCC 3810

Montana High Country 380TH
GVWR 17000/Hitch Weight 3185/UVW 13300/CCC 3700

Vengeance Touring Edition 381L12-6
GVWR 19500/Hitch Weight 2924/UVW 14221/CCC 5279

I currently have a 2017 Grey Wolf 22rr.
GVWR 7686/Hitch Weight 686/UVW 4871/CCC 2815
I load about 1500lbs (Harley, gear, tools and other odds and ends)

I would love to buy a dually. As many stated above better power and stability. But I live in a development and dually trucks are not permitted. So I've been researching and found that Ford may have one that fits the bill. Look at the screen shots attached. What are your thoughts?

FYI - I looked at 1 ton SRW RAM and Chevy. Both max out at 17,200 for towing and about 3,800 lbs for payload.

Any of these options could have pin weights well over 4,000 or more once they're loaded. As stated above, the payload listed for that truck is before options, passengers, fuel, hitch, and anything else that may be in the truck with you.

[MikeRP]

Originally Posted by walaby

I'd have to say a 18K 5er is too much in my mind for a SRW.

Now, a 15K or so 5er, I believe is doable.

I have a 2017 RAM 3500 SRW,

Payload 4030
RAWR 7000

A 15K 5er, assuming 20% pin weight, would put 3K on the rear axle.

Axle weight (unloaded) is ~2900
Add 3K = 5900 - still 1100 below axle.

Also 3K pin would still leave 1K payload remaining.


So, 15-16K 5er seems reasonable for a 1 ton SRW... I can't see a 18K 5er meeting those specs.


Mike

I like Mike’s comments here. Here’s one thing I want to point out to everyone. You can’t really compare 2000 -2010 model trucks to newer ones. These new trucks are just beasts and much more capable and safe than all previous models.

GVWR has some flexibility. Here’s my example, a Ram CC 3500 SRW SB has an 11700 lbs GVWR, a Ram CC SRW LB has an 12400 lbs GVWR. The brakes, axles and tires are the same. The higher GVWR is just 600 lbs short of the combined FAWR and RAWR = 13000lbs. The rear tire ratings are just 240 lbs more than the RAWR.

But there is limitation. And that limit is the tire ratings. When you drive a large Class C you get used to using a vehicle where you are right on the max tire ratings everyday and you need a good TPMS to monitor tire pressures and temps. Kinda of scary to look at the tpms and see 96 psi and well over 100 degree temps.

I think one thing we haven’t done is realize that the engineers build in safety factors for us because they can’t know what every person will do. But when you go to a weight calculator they want to build in another 15-25 percent safety factor.

This stacking of safety factors extremely narrows the tow capability of all SRW vehicles to the point you need a DRW in some cases to tow 13000 lbs.

So. in my opinion, we all need to pay extreme attention and care to our tires. We need to slow down. No need to ever run over 65. If I ran my class c even at 70 mph hot weather, I’d see pressures over 100 psi on all the tires. Time to slow down! And they would cool down at 65 mph.

A stock SRW definitely has an upper limit of around 16200 lbs.

So what’s the prudent man do if you are towing at the limits? What’s the prudent man do if you want to use an SRW to tow 18000 lbs? I would go to the best truck shop I could find, and do suspension and brakes upgrades, I would put 19.5 inch truck tires, which can be bought at the same diameter as stock 18 inch tires, but have 80% more carrying capacity.

Document that with the truck shop the improvements. I saw this a lot in the late 2000’s on Ram 2500 trucks towing large toy haulers. Certainly the new Ram 3500’s are arguably more capable than a similar 2007 Ram. Same with Ford or GM. I saw a Ram 2500 farm truck the other day Crew Cab LB and it was a beastly beautiful truck, every bit as capable as a 3500 with some rear suspension mods.

I asked my dealer one day, whom I’m great friends with, why do you buy 2500’s and I have to come in and order a 3500 SRW. He said people think they ride better, (they don’t in my opinion). And the 10,000 lb GVWR is cheaper in some states for licensing. He just says they sell easier. 10000 lbs is a totally arbitrary limitation.

So in conclusion and I’m preaching to myself: slow down 65 mph Max, keep way more assured clear distance, pay attention! Keep tire pressures right. Have a good TPMS. Don’t drive tired or distracted. Plan the route. Both hands on the wheel. Have patience. Answer no phone calls while driving. Stay in the truck lane. Practice this while not towing so it’s normal when towing.

Frick I need to post this in my truck.

Merry Christmas everyone!