New Generator

[formerFR]

this was our main drawback in our first journey into RVing ... a 5vr bunkhouse with no generator. i purchased two Honda units, the second was the 30a companion model. I tested them, they worked well together for the 30a output, and were not overly loud, especially when well away from the RV. These Honda models, though, will vary in speed as the need applies, so when little amperage is needed, they idle pretty quietly.

i never used either before we decided to trade to a new Georgetown ClassA with the onboard generator... sold both Hondas right away on craigslist at a very good price.

[Mr Havercamp]

Originally Posted by Musky Dave

The standard, non inverter generators are fine. They are what's used in every medical facility, business, and home for emergency power backup. They run entire buildings without any problems. Sensitive medical equipment works just fine, I'm sure our fancy flat screens will survive. I'm not an expert by any means, just looking at the obvious.

Just my $.02

Dave

Not to argue but the generators we install in buildings as back up are not your average contractor type champion or whatever brand. I've powered site trailers at times with standard generators and I am proof sometimes electronic items don't like them. Forget a flat screen. Try a Dell precision laptop, an HP plotter, and a ups with surge turned into useless toast to the tune of about $5K or better. They're fine for a circular saw but I went to inverters for the field offices and never looked back.

[emm-dee]

Originally Posted by 5picker

It's all about the efficiency of the fuel.
Propane is less efficient than gasoline and therefore won't 'react' to loading as well as gasoline especially as temperatures get colder.

You are correct when referring to the genny purring along at 3600 RPM it really doesn't matter what is powering it at that point.
But it is when you introduce a load(s) to the generator, as to which fuel can react better to keeping it purring at 3600 RPM. Propane simply cannot as it's BTU's per gallon (combustion power) is less than gas. Simply put, a propane powered engine just doesn't produce as much horsepower as a gas fueled engine, therefore the derating of the wattage.

Just so I understand correctly, are you saying that the generator has more reduction in RPM when surge loaded while running propane than it does while operating with gas? To expand further, would there be a difference in motor output fluctuations when loaded while running 89 octane vs 91 octane fuel?

[5picker]

Originally Posted by emm-dee

Just so I understand correctly, are you saying that the generator has more reduction in RPM when surge loaded while running propane than it does while operating with gas? To expand further, would there be a difference in motor output fluctuations when loaded while running 89 octane vs 91 octane fuel?

What I'm saying (well not really me but the manufacturers of these things) is that the generator, under load, (and typically more noticeable at FULL load) simply doesn't have enough horsepower to supply the rated wattage it would be able to produce if using gasoline.

The combustion (explosion) inside the engine (on propane) just doesn't produce as much 'power' to push the piston. So yes, it would bog down (reduction in RPM) more so than when using gasoline.

If you want to split hairs on 89 -vs- 91 octane, that's up to you.
I'm sure there might be some small difference unless the engine's internal combustion components were designed to produce maximum horsepower on 87 or 89 octane. Then using 91 (or higher) would just be wasting money.

[wmtire]

Originally Posted by youroo

Charles,have you tried your New Genny with the Surge Guard plugged into it? On the Champion Inverter type the Surge Gard will prevent Power u

nless you install a "Edison Plug" then All is well! Just asking,our Hondas didn't require the Edison Plug but the Champions did when using the Surge Gard! Youroo!!

I was confused at the terminology there of an "Edison plug", which is a term often used for a common regular old 15 amp and/or 20 amp household outlet/plug.

I then remembered that Mike Sokol used the terminology in his youtube video, when he made the ground/neutral bond plug to insert into the generators 15/20 amp outlet (aka Edison outlet)

Here is his video, which may help clear it up as he made a g-n bond plug to insert in the "Edison" outlet of the generator.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-bTLdMjuqU

[SidecarFlip]

Originally Posted by Mr Havercamp

Not to argue but the generators we install in buildings as back up are not your average contractor type champion or whatever brand. I've powered site trailers at times with standard generators and I am proof sometimes electronic items don't like them. Forget a flat screen. Try a Dell precision laptop, an HP plotter, and a ups with surge turned into useless toast to the tune of about $5K or better. They're fine for a circular saw but I went to inverters for the field offices and never looked back.

Thank you...

A little electricity 101....

A 2 pole 3600 rpm non electronically controlled generator ( the Champion the OP has) and others produce a modified sine pattern and more importantly, the CPS (Hertz) is mechanically regulated by the throttle setting, consequently, as you load the unit, the RPM drops and the CPS drops as well

Electronics don't like either. In fact some electronics will cease working.

An inverter on the other hand produces a DC current which is 'inverted' to 110 /1 or in commercial units, 220/1/3 and the CPS (Hertz) is electronically produced and regulated.

Not here to argue and powering electronic devices in modified sine wave / varying hertz power may or may not cause a failure, but it's certainly a crapshoot.

I use an inverter myself. Your mileage may vary. It's your dime, not mine.

[chuckw5kav]

Originally Posted by youroo

Charles,have you tried your New Genny with the Surge Guard plugged into it? On the Champion Inverter type the Surge Gard will prevent Power u

nless you install a "Edison Plug" then All is well! Just asking,our Hondas didn't require the Edison Plug but the Champions did when using the Surge Gard! Youroo!!

We have the Honda 6.5 ISU and when we plug in the trailer to it we
have to disable the surge protector in the 5th wheel.

[Mr Havercamp]

Originally Posted by chuckw5kav

We have the Honda 6.5 ISU and when we plug in the trailer to it we
have to disable the surge protector in the 5th wheel.

Because it is probably detecting over or under voltage when the load increases or decreases if your EMS has that feature, and you possibly need the "edision plug" as youroo calls it that he mentioned.

[Charles.maine]

Going to let the generator run for probably 2 hours this weekend maybe like 1 with no load and 1 with a load just to get a broke in a little. Got some sta-bil for the fuel. I have 4 5-gal jugs that I am going to take with me. Used Mobile 1 synthetic 10W30 oil in it. Going to only run 91 octane fuel. Try to take care of it as much as possible.

[mxdad]

I use a Honda EM5000SX contractor style generator. I run 2 flat screens, my Surface Pro 3, the 15k AC, and whatever else I want and have never had an issue.

When you first start a generator, it will run a little faster at no load. This will give you a little more voltage and frequency, typically less than 130VAC and 61Hz. As you load the generator, you have "droop" and the volts and Hz will drop. Frequency is more speed dependent than voltage, so it will vary more with fluctuations in speed.

If something gets "fried," it is from undervoltage, or more frequently, overvoltage. If the mechanical speed regulator doesn't react quickly enough, or the voltage regulator fails, this can create high voltage. However, most electronic items convert AC back to D.C., so small fluctuations are not really going to affect them.

Where am I going with this? I started with a Champion 4000/3500W generator. It had a 6HP motor on it and any medium size load would cause .5 Hz and 3-5 V fluctuations until the governor stabilized speed and I never had a failure. The Honda is a 4500 running watt genny and has a 13HP motor on it, so it doesn't have the speed variations that the champion had. If you have a surge protector, you should be OK.

[SidecarFlip]

Glad I'm not lugging that boat anchor around.

No 'droop' with an inverter. CPS is electronically controlled from idle (economy mode) to maximum output.

[rat4spd]

Originally Posted by SidecarFlip

Thank you...

A little electricity 101....

A 2 pole 3600 rpm non electronically controlled generator ( the Champion the OP has) and others produce a modified sine pattern and more importantly, the CPS (Hertz) is mechanically regulated by the throttle setting, consequently, as you load the unit, the RPM drops and the CPS drops as well

Please explain how a non inverted generator makes a modified sine wave.

[SidecarFlip]

Originally Posted by rat4spd

Please explain how a non inverted generator makes a modified sine wave.

It's a bit technical but you can figure it out, I'm sure......

Understanding Generator Ripple Waveforms - Autonerdz
http://www.autonerdz.com/.../Underst...s_-_Ford_001.p...
2. 2. Understanding Generator Ripple Waveforms. Table of Contents .... As the north and south poles of the field move past the stator windings, alternating ...

[SidecarFlip]

Originally Posted by rat4spd

I generate electricity for a living. I just wanted to know if there was some magic I don't understand about our generator.

I'd like to see that..lol

I think you mean you work at/in a power generation plant

[Tapex]

Does the DW telling me that I have hot air all the time count Natural Gas lol

[5picker]

Originally Posted by tapex

Does the DW telling me that I have hot air all the time count Natural Gas lol

No but eating beans counts as natural gas!

[SidecarFlip]

Looks like there is a definite lump in it....

[Flybob]

Moderator Note:
This thread has become confrontational. When posting your position, post it and move on. The OP has received his answer and that last few pages of posts are not providing any new information.

[zuhnc]

A gasoline powered 2-pole generator (standard non-inverter, constant speed type) running at 3600 rpm, will produce a true sine wave, at a frequency of 60hz. There might be some slight artifacts in the waveform, due to the design of the armature and/or stator. It DOES NOT produce any type of "modified sine wave", as is produced by battery-powered inverters. A "true-sine-wave" battery-powered inverter produces the same type of waveform as commercial power, and that produced by the gasoline-powered generator.

The engine governor, if properly adjusted, will keep the speed (and hence, the frequency) -about- 60 Hz. Normal (desired) droop and overshoot is +/- 3 Hz. Now, the voltage (120/240) is controlled either by an electronic regulator, or the design of the rotor/stator of the set. The electronic type will TRY to keep the voltage steady, regardless of speed, but the "inherently regulated" type (generator design) voltage is controlled by the speed. Therefore, with this type of generator, if you have a severe overspeed, the voltage will go WELL ABOVE the nominal 120/240 volts. This is what fries the electronics and motors. Circuit breakers and fuses are of little help here.

Most modern electronics don't care what the waveform looks like; almost all have a switching power supply, and some type of regulation to run the main electronics at a very much lower voltage than 120/240. Everything in my house runs quite nicely on my generator, without any line conditioning. This includes the microwave, two tv's, two computers, A UPS, the alarm system, the security DVR, the cable/tv dvr, as well as a lot of other electronics. None of it cares if the power fluctuates slightly, as long as it stays "about" 120 volts, +/- 10 volts, and the frequency is "about" 60 Hz, +/- 3 Hz.

As to fuel, Gasoline and Propane have about the same energy content; you will NOT have to derate the generator when running on Propane. From the Onan Gaseous Fuels Technicial Manual, T-015:

Derating is only necessary when running the generator on Natural Gas; about 20%.

So, if the generator is run on gasoline or propane, the governor is adjusted properly for speed and droop, there will be no issues with any equipment running on the generator.

The constant-speed 3600 rpm generators are generally NOT designed to idle down, when no loads are present. There are some on the market designed that way, however. I do not know how electronic loads would react to such variable voltage output. Idle speed generally produces about 60-70 volts ac, and that would damage equipment, if connected. A load that draws very little current may cause the generator to idle down when not desired, and the low voltage will damage such equipment. zuhnc

[zuhnc]

The copy and paste did not work in the previous post. Here is the relevant information from the Onan Technical Document:

"An engine-generator set, using LP (butane, propane, or a commercial mixture of both) will deliver nearly the same power as it would if gasoline were the fuel."

Sorry for the omission. zuhnc