The RV industry death spiral

[KatanaPilot]

Originally Posted by rockfordroo

Well, I've been following this thread for 14 pages now. I am neither defaming nor defending FR or the RV industry, but other than the "affected equipment" being different, all the issues I've read here, I can read almost verbatim comments on the Chevy Traverse forum I follow.

I have a 2011 Traverse with (knock on wood) no problems; BUT I can tell you all about timing chains, power steering pumps, water pumps, steering racks, throttle bodies, air conditioner evaporator cores, tail gate lift mechanisms, headlights repeated burning out, and more. And the people with the problems say the same things about GM that folks here are saying about FR.

At least with a new car/SUV/truck, your State has a Lemon Law that will protect you during that first year. Additionally, there are plenty of resources available with reliability and repair information for the various models of vehicles. Neither would apply to RV's. Yes, you can read forums like this, but there are no practical means to determine (in a statistically valid sense) whether or not a particular model or manufacturer is better or worse than "average".

Further, with two manufacturers now controlling 80+% of the RV market, there aren't many choices. I can't really tell if a Dynamax Isata 3 is better built/more reliable than my Forester MBS - even though the Isata is more expensive. One might conclude that, but I'm not sure price alone is a valid determiner of "quality".

[bclemens]

Price is certainly not an indicator of quality. We don't build as many per day, so in theory you would think that is better. But you're doing it with fewer people, so really is it?

That one thing I know for sure is that with lower volume, we have more time to walk the product when its ready to ship. More eyes have a chance to catch things before they get out...which is when we want to catch them (contrary to popular belief).

We still have to depend on supplier components...and that is the frustrating part. Some suppliers are not providing the same level of support that we strive for. And yes, we can and do drop those suppliers....but what about the units that are already in the field?

The price for an Isata covers several things.
1. we offer a 2 year warranty on our stuff.
2. We have more standard features
3. more expensive components (less plastic where we can,more real metal). Residential 1/2" Corian versus 1/4".
4. more labor. We weld all four sides of a tube, then grind down the face. Sand every single inch of the unit before painting. We "cut and buff" every paint job (NO ONE does that)

We also want to price the product so that when there is a problem...I can say "just take care of it". I don't want to squabble over every issue. We have a lot of work ahead of us and we're not where we want to be, but I promise we will be there within 12 months.

I hope that my presence here is an indicator of the commitment we have. While I don't want to toot our own horn, I think it is important to point out that while the "death spiral" article and comments in support of it try and act like the industry doesn't care I think several posters can tell stories to the contrary.

While I would rather not screw anything up, we have shipped free parts directly to customers to avoid all the hassle with dealers or just save a drive. We have done things via private message (partly because if I offer something up, from past experience, we can get 10 others saying "me too" when the situations are different). This is the one and only time I will bring this up, because I think the situation warrants it.

Don't take my defense of Dynamax as a free pass on the industry or denial of bad quality/support. But for every "champion" of the disgruntled I think there are 5 positive voices that do not get heard...so I am just trying to temper the "sky is falling" mentality with some real world examples of things (hopefully) done right. Again, I can only speak for my division, but I know for a fact there are others in the industry, doing things the right way...they just don't hop on forums to prove it.

[BamaBob]

Originally Posted by KatanaPilot

To read about problems like this from FR owners -

http://www.forestriverforums.com/for...lp-113903.html

Don't think this was due to inadequate PDI, or unreasonable demands from an unreasonable owner. Many of us simply want to take our MH on a trip of a lifetime and not worry about preventable failures interrupting or ruining a trip. I know I would like to do that. Maybe that's too much to ask?

A failed motor is a bummer. However, re-read the OP - 15 months old, 10K miles - this is hardly a Forest River or "unit defective from the factory" issue. Things break (it's why we have a 7 year Coach Net bumper to bumper extended warranty).

BTW, in a effort to help, I sent the OP the names of the FR3 warranty POCs in Elkhart since that is what he was really asking for in his post.

[BamaBob]

Originally Posted by bclemens

<SNIP>

We still have to depend on supplier components...and that is the frustrating part. Some suppliers are not providing the same level of support that we strive for.

Fully agree here! We have noticed this in all the FR products we have had - and I agree this is the toughest nut FR has to crack!

I do not think a lot of people really realize that a RV (ANY brand of RV) is made up of dozens of components manufactured by other venders -- about the only thing "manufactured" by FR is the cabinetry that is put in the RVs (and the Amish employees are darn fine woodworkers IMO!)

Unfortunately, however, integrated components have variable reliability

A good poster child example is the tankless HWH in the Berkshire. The Diesel Division has had a recurring problem with Atwood & Girard. When they realized this year that these two vendors simply could not provide a reliable product, they"fired" them and went to Truma. Not being a "FR Glee club member" here, just trying to show that FR is practicing due diligence when they continue to experience a unreliable component.

And...before someone screams what about the faulty components already out there? I know for a fact that FR has replaced them - sometimes at cost and sometimes for free depending on circumstance.

Speaking of replacing faulty components, take a look at the annual FROG Rally in August. For the price of admission you are offered free maintenance on your RV in addition to all the meals, ice cream socials, seminars, tours, plant visits and the opportunity to chat with the big guy himself, Pete Ligel.

Originally Posted by bclemens

<SNIP>

We have a lot of work ahead of us and we're not where we want to be, but I promise we will be there within 12 months.

I hope that my presence here is an indicator of the commitment we have.
<SNIP>

It DOES and we greatly appreciate your presence here!

Originally Posted by bclemens

Don't take my defense of Dynamax as a free pass on the industry or denial of bad quality/support. But for every "champion" of the disgruntled I think there are 5 positive voices that do not get heard...so I am just trying to temper the "sky is falling" mentality with some real world examples of things (hopefully) done right. Again, I can only speak for my division, but I know for a fact there are others in the industry, doing things the right way...they just don't hop on forums to prove it.

I really do wish that Forest River made it Corporate Policy that EVERY division had a rep on the FRF (I know a lot of the divisions have lurkers, but IMO a active presence would go a long way to bolster a positive attitude toward customer service and the ownership experience) Maybe a Corporate 12 month plan?

[DreiHunde]

Originally Posted by BamaBob

I really do wish that Forest River made it Corporate Policy that EVERY division had a rep on the FRF (I know a lot of the divisions have lurkers, but IMO a active presence would go a long way to bolster a positive attitude toward customer service and the ownership experience) Maybe a Corporate 12 month plan?

THAT would be awesome!!!

[BandJCarm]

I asked Cedar Creek Manager to please have someone frequent these forums, and he had quite a few reasons why he couldn't/wouldn't do that.

If I was King of Earth, they'd all have someone here. This is a unique forum, not just a whiny bucket......though it's that too at times. The sheer number of 'members' here gives it too much weight to ignore. That's MHO.

[BandJCarm]

Another point.

This is a very interesting thread and I'm enjoying it.

But.......if this is a Death Spiral, I guess I'm a Lemming at the precipice. I'm not alone either. At this very moment in time, there are 3 new threads with "Hi, I'm new from Texas/Indiana/Ohio". 3 a minute.

If it's a death spiral (and it may be), there's a ton of folks going down, down, down, this ring of fire..................

Edit: FOUR. Soon as I hit enter, Georgia newbie showed up. LOL

[BamaBob]

Originally Posted by BandJCarm

Another point.

If it's a death spiral (and it may be), there's a ton of folks going down, down, down, this ring of fire..................

Edit: FOUR. Soon as I hit enter, Georgia newbie showed up. LOL

5 - you missed the one from Delaware

[BandJCarm]

And SW GA and Vermont.

I only have 9 toes man................

[BamaBob]

I also like another Lewis Grizzard Quote: "Neckties are men’s payback for the fact that we don’t have to get pregnant"

[bclemens]

There are several issues with this site.
1. We don't own it. it is a 3rd party company and we have zero control over what they do or how they do it. There is probably some fear of the unknown, what liability would we face, etc"
2. As a non-Forest River site, I think some people just don't know about it.
3. If we make it policy to monitor the site, I wonder if NHSTA would consider it a FR resource and require reporting on every single defect shown. And...if one did get missed, what kind of fine do they levy for lack of institutional control (to borrow an NCAA term).
4. Sometimes, and I know this is hard to believe. Customers can have unreasonable expectations.
5. where do you draw the line? Why this forum and not some of the others?

In the end...I'm more of an "ask for forgiveness" not "permission" type of guy and the way to handle unreasonable expectations if to put them in the full light of day and respond with facts. I can't argue with "feelings", but if you post all the facts, let the crowd judge and that seems to work pretty good. I'd rather present both sides of the situation than to let someone post "their" version unchecked (which can sometimes be filled with assumptions and interpretations)

[bclemens]

Originally Posted by BandJCarm

Another point.

This is a very interesting thread and I'm enjoying it.

But.......if this is a Death Spiral, I guess I'm a Lemming at the precipice. I'm not alone either. At this very moment in time, there are 3 new threads with "Hi, I'm new from Texas/Indiana/Ohio". 3 a minute.

If it's a death spiral (and it may be), there's a ton of folks going down, down, down, this ring of fire..................

Edit: FOUR. Soon as I hit enter, Georgia newbie showed up. LOL

Well said, also sub-consciously read it in the voice of Johnny Cash. Imagine that.

[BandJCarm]

Wonderful points.

But if you owned it, your participation would forever be suspect. It's ONLY a 3rd party owned site that would work for you to participate in.

I think you're crawfishing a little (LOL) on 2 and 3.

#4 is true.......for everyone but me.

#5 is meaningless. Don't draw a line. Just pick the biggest and baddest and onliest that comes close to representing the customer base, and jump in.

Man, I'm good at solving YOUR problems, huh? LOL

[BamaBob]

Originally Posted by bclemens

There are several issues with this site.
1. We don't own it. it is a 3rd party company and we have zero control over what they do or how they do it. There is probably some fear of the unknown, what liability would we face, etc"
2. As a non-Forest River site, I think some people just don't know about it.
3. If we make it policy to monitor the site, I wonder if NHSTA would consider it a FR resource and require reporting on every single defect shown. And...if one did get missed, what kind of fine do they levy for lack of institutional control (to borrow an NCAA term).
4. Sometimes, and I know this is hard to believe. Customers can have unreasonable expectations.
5. where do you draw the line? Why this forum and not some of the others?

Hmmmm... thought provoking. Thanks for this thoughtful insight -- these were some issues / considerations that had never occurred to me.

One tiny rejoinder to point 5 though: Good Sam/ IRV2/ Escapees/ FMCA/MHRIG/ et al are not specifically dedicated to one RV Brand like the FRF is.

Still, I can see the reason why FR is not more active on the FRF - however I do believe it would do wonders to bolster FR's image.

Imagine the good will that would have been generated if a FR3 rep had answered the OP in the thread mentioned by KatanaPilot earlier today.

[bclemens]

Lol...absolutely. All concede all your points except with #3 (and I'll have to assume what crawfishing means using context). NHSTA has come on strong, front and center with new fine numbers. As part of our "information collection" agreement, there is a $30 million dollar deferred fine hanging out there. It's the government...sometimes you don't even know what you're supposed to be doing until they tell you you're not doing it right.

Everyone is running scared right now...obviously all the automotive groups are the ones in the media, but its everybody.

[BandJCarm]

BC (my initials too), think Charles Durning in "Best Little Whorehouse in Texas"........and his song.

And I'm just playin' wid ya.

[BamaBob]

Originally Posted by bclemens

<SNIP>
(and I'll have to assume what crawfishing means using context).
<SNIP>

Crawfishing: Backing out of a commitment or situation, especially when it doesn't go the way you expected it to.

It's a Southern Say'n...y'all wouldn't understand

[BamaBob]

Originally Posted by BandJCarm

And SW GA and Vermont.

I only have 9 toes man................

LOL BTW, Vermont just posted a "Hi New 5er" post

Man they are buying RVs faster than rabbits mate

Death Spiral? Um, if you say so

[bclemens]

No worries, got the gist of it. Its a term I'll be sure to adopt.

[KatanaPilot]

Originally Posted by BamaBob

Speaking of replacing faulty components, take a look at the annual FROG Rally in August. For the price of admission you are offered free maintenance on your RV in addition to all the meals, ice cream socials, seminars, tours, plant visits and the opportunity to chat with the big guy himself, Pete Ligel.

Which probably means you are retired and have the time to drive anywhere anytime you want. It sounds like you plan and look forward to going to the FROG fests. I have neither the time nor the inclination to do that.

Many of us are not full time. The RV campground is not our destination. The National Park is. The campground is merely a place to park and setup our RV so we can go hiking, exploring, etc. The RV is our hotel on wheels.

A failure to you is merely an inconvenience - to others like me it can ruin the trip. Sounds like the OP in the post "A cry for help" was not a full-timer - he had multiple failures of his RV on his trip a long way from home. So it's not acceptable in my book to have so many issues on such a new MH.

The "bring it back to the factory" isn't a valid solution. This reminds of an old saying from a former defense contractor I used to work for - "We never have time to do it right, but we always have time to do it over".