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Old 07-26-2016, 09:36 AM   #1
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Pretty Disappointed!! Please Help!!

This is copy and pasted from an email I sent to the sales/service reps listed on the forest river website. Any insight would be wonderful. I am a Service Manager at a Honda Dealer so pretty well versed on product quality. Its long winded so get a cup of coffee!!!

Its a 2017 Flagstaff Shamrock 233S

Please bare with me as I may not have all the technical verbiage correct but I will explain to the best of my ability. The TT has been on a total of four relatively local trips this year all less than 100 miles round trip. This is the TOTAL usage thus far.




During trip one we pulled into the RV park and got into our site. I immediately noticed an issue with the black sewer line, it was very low to the ground. Upon examining I found both mounting bolts to the frame had sheared off during travel. I fixed it my self...I obviously couldn't drive home that way. A drill bit, two stainless self tapping screws and was back in business. Had a freak bit of cold weather that weekend as well so had to turn on the heat. We had a ridiculous amount of condensation on all of the tent end interiors...to be expected but NEVER had that happen in the JAYCO. On the way home stopped for gas noticed the passenger rear axle tire looked low so gauged it and sure enough was low. Got home and checked that tire over top to bottom, jacked it up and pulled it off. Took to work and dunked in water examination tank to find a split along edge of tread block....looked like a defect nothing in it. Didn't complain, bought a new tire and mounted it myself. Got home a vacuumed the floor...im a particularly neat guy, noticed the floor laminate lifting in spots??? No harm no foul so far?? The day I left the dealer during the walkthrough found things not aligned properly and a big dent in bottom of stove. The walk thru tech was VERY nice and did what he could to satisfy.




Next trip got to the site....opened her up to find front tent end canvas had some water must have got through the top seal, it was wet on the inside canvas...also light water stain visible from the inside. Since than I have watched it and surely there is water there every time. Let the awning out that night, next morning noticed doesn't seem to "wind up perfectly straight". Also, that morning noticed the little orange "night light" on exterior the orange cover MELTED from the bulb heat. The water heater kept spewing from the thermal expansion valve all day that day....normal??? By the end of that trip started noticing all kinds of fabric "imperfections" where seams and corners of cushions were starting to fall apart. Creases in couch seem to be separating almost like they want to tear. Had to fix a drawer with a magnet catch...it wouldn't stay closed for the life of me. This trip was warmer didn't seem A/C was able to keep up with heat intrusion. My father in law has FLIR infrared thermal imaging cameras...he does Energy audits for a living...the trailer is very poorly insulated. Couldn't say if A/C is poor or just an insulation issue.




Trip three....much of the same. One of the windows in front of the sink broke. The little metal arms that keep it in track has a very cheap wheel which keeps it in the track...it broke. Noticed the carpet is bunching up in front of the slide area. This trip actually presented a "safety issue". My seven year old non verbal son was laying on the front bunk. He moves around a lot. I noticed he started whining and at the same time a great deal more light coming in the trailer??? The front canvas actually separated from the bulkhead causing him to literally almost fall out of the camper, fortunately he is very strong and pulled himself back in. NOW I AM PISSED!!!! I left the campground and got some materials to fix it. The canvas I couldn't believe is literally held in to the track with a few screws.....I mean come on. God forbid this wasn't my two year old who could have fallen out of the camper onto the ground. This is a MAJOR design flaw. I questioned the rep at the show why there was such a huge gap between the mattress and the canvas, at that point I was given no answer. Now I know this is a problem like I assumed it might be.




Trip Four...this past weekend. It was hot outside 90-92 degrees. We spent our morning at the swimming lake. We left the dog in the trailer so I had the A/C on high and about 75 degree setting. We only opened the slide, front and side bunks this weekend since our experience has been that these tents let a LOT of heat in. I could not get that trailer under 80 degrees to save my life. I used an infrared thermometer and barely got supply vent air under 75 degrees. I deal with A/C a lot in the auto business. I am very versed on how it functions. We than proceeded to close the back section of the camper off with a plastic sheet that went from the bath door to the fridge, and drape EVERY window and opening with dark sheets to keep as little air in and heat out as we could. We also had two multi speed fans running. It was so uncomfortable I actually packed up my whole site, upset my wife and kids and LEFT THE SITE!!! Air conditioning should be sized and be able to handle heat load and proper cycling. As intake air moves past the coil it supplies cooler air which gets dumped into the trailer...as the trailer gets cooler so does intake air and therefore turns supply air even cooler until temp is satisfied at the thermostat. This was FAR from what was happening. Either the A/C unit is severely undersized or the trailer is designed/insulated VERY POORLY to not allow this to happen. Many of my camping neighbors had similar 13,500 btu a/c units and I politely asked to step into there trailers....none were even remotely like mine. They were all nice and cool. This trip I had to fix the door screen and a window screen as well.







I don't feel like I should have to walk around in bubble wrap to use the trailer but I also feel like every time my kids or I touch anything that everything is so cheaply made that we are afraid we are going to break something. I didn't pay $25,000 to be in fear of using the trailer like they are meant to be used. We are not rough on it and I am certainly intelligent and educated on building materials and quality of Motor Vehicles or RV's. I also don't feel like its normal to have to significantly change the layout to attempt to accommodate poor construction, poor Air Conditioning components and overall workmanship. I am literally spending all of my time that I am supposed to be relaxing fixing or worrying about what will break next. I am also wondering why I spent $25,000 to be hot and uncomfortable anytime it gets warm out. I could have bought a $50 tent, than my expectation would be hot is normal. It could be 100 degrees in that Jayco and I could get it ICE COLD. I did not have any of these issues in the Jayco which was a very comparable trailer, so unlike many I do have a benchmark on which to pass my judgement on.




I'm really at a loss for words, and not sure what to do next. I am so disappointed with all these issues I am beside myself. I certainly cant see myself not having further issues based on the track record on this unit. Hopefully one of you on this email can shed some light on the situation and what your thoughts are. Please review and let me know what you think
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Old 07-26-2016, 10:12 AM   #2
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Sorry to hear about all these issues. We are on year 4 with our Roo and have had some of these issues, but not to the extent you have seen.


Unfortunately, lesson #1 with a new RV is that quality & service are well behind the auto industry - especially if you work for Honda!


Some of the minor stuff like the sheared bolts and cabinet latches needing adjustment are just annoying, but you either fix them yourself or make a punch list for the dealer.


However the issues with your canvas and AC should not happen and need to get fixed. We've camped in our Roo for over 100 nights so far, and no issues with either, so I don't think its primarily design issues. On the leaks, pinched canvas is probably the #1 cause (have you tried the trick of running the fantastic fans with everything but the bunks closed when folding up?) Assuming that is not your issue, the next thing I would check is that the gaskets are cut squarely and go all the way to the corners at the top. Seems several people have had issues with sloppy cuts done with a dull butter knife and that can cause water intrusion.


We've never had the canvas come loose, but we did have a few other loose parts. The dealer went through and added more screws/fasteners and solved the issues. Now, this shouldn't be the way it works, but in the interest of getting the issue solved have you asked the dealer about re-attaching and beefing up the canvas anchoring?


Not sure why your AC isn't keeping up. We've spent a couple weeks in 90 degree plus heat and the 13.5k AC does fine. We do use PUGS and reflectix in the bunk ends (my son asked me if I was worried about aliens when I bought them?!?). Other than that and closing the curtains we haven't had to do anything to maintain a 72 degree set point. I did swap the thermostat for a digital one for better control but it would still keep up.


Again, unlike Honda - there is a huge range of quality and competence among dealer service departments but that is your first place to start. See what they can do and see if they will be your advocate with FR. After learning the hard way, we bought from very good dealer this time. They took care of a dozen or so issues with no questions or hassle. The cheap plastic screen door latch broke and I broke a lens cover on a light removing it to clean out Styrofoam (and told them I broke it) - both fixed at n/c when they could have denied them as warranty. Also got a blown tire replaced under the second year warranty. So start there and see what they can do.


When the dealer can't or won't help, go directly to FR. If you can stay calm and be polite but firm, it seems most of the time they come through.


And for sure, if you haven't already, send it that 2nd year warranty form. They don't seem to hold to the old 10 day requirement and it can pay off big if you have a troublesome rig.


Good luck and let us know how things turn out.
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Old 07-26-2016, 10:20 AM   #3
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It is at the Service Dept now getting the A/C looked at. I also just ordered the PUGs from Bob....by the way, what a NICE guy. If your unit keeps it at 72 no problem mine definitly has a problem, unless the PUGS make that much of a difference (which I hope they do). I mentioned all of my issues hoping they get resolved. 2nd yr warranty?????
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Old 07-26-2016, 10:27 AM   #4
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2nd yr warranty?????
http://www.forestriverforums.com/for...an-111231.html
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Old 07-26-2016, 10:33 AM   #5
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How do I get the 2nd yr warranty

How do I go about applying for the 2nd year.
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Old 07-26-2016, 10:44 AM   #6
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How do I go about applying for the 2nd year.
The link I provided above has all the info you need. Just click on the PDF, print it out, fill it in and put it in the mail.
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Old 07-26-2016, 03:21 PM   #7
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I agree with the AC also. Had a hot weekend camping with PUGS and AC ran on high the whole trip even at night and it never got super cold in the camper. I have to get mine back to the dealer to check AC.
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Old 07-26-2016, 03:28 PM   #8
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Pretty Disappointed

Wow!! Sorry to hear of all your problems. Had a Roo model 19 and AC unit worked like a charm. I'll bet there is a problem with the installation or the unit itself. As far as water leaking in to the unit at the bunk ends, we had the same problem. After three return trips to the dealer and all new gaskets being installed, we still had the same problem. Old pro at dealer remembered a similar problem on another model years older. They solved the problem by installing a flt rubber gasket on the folding door side of the bunk ends. You then had a gasket on each side meeting each other. Problem solved. Good luck with the other problems. Their are the dealers responsibility to fix and report to FR. Stay on their A-- or your trailer will be there forever.
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Old 07-26-2016, 03:49 PM   #9
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Your Honda experience has spoiled you to real world values.
Sorry to say that you need a reality check my friend. Quality is now days what you dearly pay for. You have compared a Lexus to a Yugo. Jayco, in my opinion, is the Lexus. Please do further research and you may find out that most builders (Labor) are not compensated to the level of say, Honda. Your surprise may further be diminished if you can give thanks that your problems are not greater and no one has been injured. Your story is not the exception but the norm.
Take this as a friendly observation and nothing more.
A savvy RV'er is also wise, does due diligence, and must be handy at most every thing and surprised at nothing.
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Old 07-26-2016, 04:04 PM   #10
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Your Honda experience has spoiled you to real world values.
Sorry to say that you need a reality check my friend. Quality is now days what you dearly pay for. You have compared a Lexus to a Yugo. Jayco, in my opinion, is the Lexus. Please do further research and you may find out that most builders (Labor) are not compensated to the level of say, Honda. Your surprise may further be diminished if you can give thanks that your problems are not greater and no one has been injured. Your story is not the exception but the norm.
Take this as a friendly observation and nothing more.
A savvy RV'er is also wise, does due diligence, and must be handy at most every thing and surprised at nothing.
While I don't disagree with much of this, I do strongly disagree with "Jayco, in my opinion, is the Lexus". There's no comparison between a luxury Japanese car and any RV unless you want to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars. I've seen quite a few Jayco's and I'll take a FR Rockwood any day over a Jayco. So, in my opinion, Jayco isn't even a top quality RV much less comparable to a Lexus.

I've had 3 campers and didn't buy any of them new. I've had reasonable success letting someone else take the depreciation hit and work out the kinks before I get it. YMMV.
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Old 07-26-2016, 04:19 PM   #11
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While I don't disagree with much of this, I do strongly disagree with "Jayco, in my opinion, is the Lexus". There's no comparison between a luxury Japanese car and any RV unless you want to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars. I've seen quite a few Jayco's and I'll take a FR Rockwood any day over a Jayco. So, in my opinion, Jayco isn't even a top quality RV much less comparable to a Lexus.

I've had 3 campers and didn't buy any of them new. I've had reasonable success letting someone else take the depreciation hit and work out the kinks before I get it. YMMV.
Ditto. If you take a loan, you can't pay it down as fast as the depreciation "pays it down". I get them about three or four years old and they are generally fine unless they have been lived. People often buy new and use them five or six trips the first year, then less and less until they wonder why it's sitting in the yard. By that time most of the inevitable problems have been repaired.

I got my current Forest River Cardinal (owned two now) at three years old. It was $62k new and I paid $25k on a short sale.

It had a few issues but not $37k worth.

Just say'.
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Old 07-26-2016, 08:27 PM   #12
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Build quality

The unfortunate reality is that most of America's rv's are built somewhere in Indiana by a bunch of sloppy idiots...and they are total crap. Crawl underneath your camper...look at the wire connectors on your electric brakes...dollars to donuts there won't be butt connectors...just cheap pressure clamp pieces of junk. Pull out your drawers and look behind them...piles of sawdust and loose and missing hardware....cheap plastic fittings everywhere....cheap Chinese radios and DVD players...ill fitting components...confused wiring...stupid plumbing and gas line runs...crappy a/c ductwork...delamination issues...crummy tires...and on and on and on. And all over priced. You're not alone in your frustration. The RV industry is a mirror image of what the auto industry used to be at its worst....the difference being that the RV industry refuses to learn the lessons of manufacturing grossly inferior products. Again...sad but all too true. As I've commented before on this forum...I own a cruising sailboat...if my boat had been built to the same standards as that of my TT, it would have sunk at dock long ago. Good luck with your issues.
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Old 07-26-2016, 09:51 PM   #13
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Tommycin: Regarding your cooling issue, if your supply temps aren't getting much under 75 from a continuously running A/C then it does seem that you do have a problem with your A/C. However, I was curious about the 2 multispeed fans you were running. You're not referring to the fantastic fans are you? If those fans are operated with the A/C running you will be blowing conditioned air out of the trailer which will be replaced by hot, humid outside air being pulled inside (even with all of the windows and door shut). These fans pull a lot of air, even on low, and your A/C will not be able to keep up with this added heat load.

Was your Jayco an expandable or hard sided?

The tent ends do allow a lot of heat in the trailer especially when the sun is shining. I do not have PUGS or Reflectixs yet, but everyone who does this mod sings praises. I have pulled in one or both bunks in to help with cooling when temps are 90+.

I general I am very pleased with my Shamrock 23IKSS. I have had a couple problems that I have fixed myself. I think part of my satisfaction is based on my expectations going in. After looking at MANY (hundreds) TT's I saw first hand that build quality and QC were no where near autos or even residential construction. I saw some brand new units with broken or missing parts, leaks, delamination, shoddy rework, etc. I also read numerous forums that bemoaned build quality and problems. I think we all wish quality was better. I went into this with eyes-wide-open and fingers crossed and so far the experience has been extremely positive.
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Old 07-26-2016, 10:00 PM   #14
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Tommycin,
Apparently you didn't research much about the lack of quality control in the RV industry, for at least the past decade.

The Auto industry and the RV industry have very little in common, other than that they both sell things with wheels at dealerships.
Other than that, they couldn't be more different.

Comparing the two is an exercise in futility.

How was your PDI?
Did the dealer provide a thorough and complete one?
Some of these things should have been caught during it.
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Old 07-26-2016, 10:01 PM   #15
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It is at the Service Dept now getting the A/C looked at. I also just ordered the PUGs from Bob....by the way, what a NICE guy. If your unit keeps it at 72 no problem mine definitly has a problem, unless the PUGS make that much of a difference (which I hope they do). I mentioned all of my issues hoping they get resolved. 2nd yr warranty?????
KMP44 provided an excellent post. The popup gizmos help tremendously with condensation when used with fans to keep the air moving inside. The Reflectix insulation will be of more help in maintaining temperature.

Here is a video showing how to use it.

https://youtu.be/mWyaF9DH5Po
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Old 07-27-2016, 11:47 AM   #16
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Had one tent camper and will NEVER have another. For $15,000 I had a used truck camper with two slideouts that I used more often than ANY RV I ever had!
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Old 07-28-2016, 03:23 PM   #17
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We were surprised how little the air worked if it was truly hot outside, we got a 2016 Roo last summer. Our air is a13 btu, not 15, it might have been wiser to get a 15btu had I known. We had a pop up for 10 years prior, with tent ends, and that air conditioner could produce! I don't get it, but we still are very happy with our little 183!


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Old 08-03-2016, 09:09 PM   #18
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Sorry to Hear about the issues...

Yikes... I can't imagine the aggravation you are going through... I bought my first 2000 Dutchmen Pop up used and had no problems. Then a 2006 Keystone and had problems with the furnace being installed improperly and filling up with water, then having the awning get blown up and over the roof by a wind gust, then the floor rotted out after 8 years of ownership...

I am curious to hear what happens with your issues. Dealers seem to have the WORST service and after they get your money, they could care less. My Wife drives Hondas, by the way and loves them for the last 15 years....

Hope it all works out...
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Old 08-05-2016, 10:25 AM   #19
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Wow, I think your experience is the exception rather than the norm. Sure, it is common to have some issues with a new RV, but not to the extent you've had. My post-PID woes amounted to exactly two drawers that won't stay closed. I'd be very upset, especially about the canvas separation. Someone could have been seriously hurt! I hope your issues are addressed quickly.
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Old 08-05-2016, 11:42 AM   #20
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I am preparing to buy a new unit...I have been very concerned of all the issue you mentioned. IMO the laminated units will delaminate eventually. I have looked at several used units with delam issues. One was about a year old and had a LARGE 3 X 4 ft area in the middle of a wall that was bubbled. What a shame...it was a 70k unit. Scary. I read where parking in the sun does more delam damage than anything. I will definitely seek a stick and tin. There just aren't that many of them. Hello I am in NE Texas and SW Arkansas it is over 100 many days a year. I mostly won't figure on any warranty except maybe catastrophic. The rest I will fix myself.
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