RV News RVBusiness 2021 Top 10 RVs of the Year, plus 56 additional debuts and must-see units → ×


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-07-2018, 01:06 PM   #21
Denver To Yuma In 90 Days
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Yuma, Arizona
Posts: 3,882
Quote:
Originally Posted by Itwrx View Post
I wish all trailers had disc brakes.

But itís all about the $$.

Consumers, your average consumer will not pay the difference for hydraulic brakes they just donít care.
Yet you are the one that started this conversation trying to justify your under rated tow vehicle.

Hhhmmmmm

Trailer brakes are not meant to stop your whole rolling train...

They are there to help your tow vehicle stop that rolling train.
JohnD10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2018, 01:06 PM   #22
Just as confused as you
 
Scrapper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: south central Wisconsin
Posts: 4,699
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmoore13 View Post
Properly managed hydraulic brakes: a) apply equal hydraulic force through "dual-diagonal" hydraulic pressure lines; b) antilock control manages this force at individual wheels by measuring wheel rotation and RELEASING all or part of the hydraulic pressure at the individual wheel; c) and who the hell has hydraulic anti-lock brakes on their trailer???

Snip

If you re-read my post, nowhere did I say anything about hydraulic anti-lock brakes on the trailer.

What I said is if the electric signal to the trailer brakes fail and you have to stop quickly, it will be a panic stop.

I guess I should have said if the signal to the trailer brakes fails, whether they are magnetic or electric/hydraulic, you may find yourself in a panic stop relying on the TV's brakes only to stop.

The trailer brakes will always be electrically activated, even with hydraulic disc brakes unless TV manufacturers start putting air pumps in for the trailer brakes. Years ago when semi-trucks were first being built there were no brakes on the trailers. Soon afterwards hydraulic brakes were experimented with but they were prone to failure because of contamination and leaking hose fittings due to dirt getting into them. That's why all tractor-trailer trucks have air brakes. They're reliable and pretty much trouble free.

If I understand right, the new pickups with integrated brake controllers are using the anti-lock features of the TV to control trailer brake lockup.
__________________
Richard & Jill
2014 Flagstaff 832IKBS Classic Super Lite
2018 Silverado 1500 Crew Cab Z71 4WD All Star Edition
Camping since 1989
Car Shredder Op/Tech, Scrap Metal Recycling - retired
I deserve hazard pay when camping with my relatives.
Scrapper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2018, 03:31 PM   #23
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnD10 View Post
Yet you are the one that started this conversation trying to justify your under rated tow vehicle.

Hhhmmmmm

Trailer brakes are not meant to stop your whole rolling train...

They are there to help your tow vehicle stop that rolling train.
Canít say I didnít learn.
Itwrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2018, 03:41 PM   #24
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: California
Posts: 7,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwdilday View Post
I have a 18,000 lb 5th wheel with electric drum brakes and they work fine - they will lock on dry pavement (and yes I have them adjusted correctly). No issues with my electric brakes.
Takes a lot less force to lock up brakes than it does to apply max pressure without skidding hence the reason anti lock brakes slow down faster with tires not skidding.
babock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2018, 04:02 PM   #25
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Itwrx View Post
Can’t say I didn’t learn.
Of course we’re talking a lot of “ theory “ and “ hypothetical “ situations.
I merely was trying to point out my last comment that most consumers won’t pay more even though it’s better, they want to pay as little as possible. So back to my original question. Assuming the brakes are properly set how usable are they? I think through all the post we can I’ll determine our own answer to that question. Kinda got off track with what happens In this scenario or that. However the same can be said for your TV. What happens if you lose breaks in your TV. What happens if you lose steering in your TV. What happens if you blow a tire on your TV. There’s a million “what if” the question I just try to get answered is how effective are they in a normal situation.
Itwrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2018, 04:22 PM   #26
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 316
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd50i View Post
I would need to see documentation on these claims.
LMGTFY
TheGerman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2018, 07:15 PM   #27
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: 8300 Feet - Rocky Mountains
Posts: 1,441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Itwrx View Post
I wish all trailers had disc brakes. But itís all about the $$. Consumers, your average consumer will not pay the difference for hydraulic brakes they just donít care. Every trailer with electric brakes will probably have an instant price jump of at least 1000.

https://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Bra.../T4843800.html
You are, no doubt, correct in that assessment. A nickle is a nickle in manufacturing. But if that were the prime issue in autos, we'd still have mechanical drum brakes. If the RV manufacturers committed to hydraulic discs with an electrically actuated piston driving the master cylinder, consumers would accept and pay for them. And they wouldn't add that much to the price of an RV...maybe a few hundred dollars per axle.

Again you are right...it's just very sad that you are.
__________________
Jim & Renee
2020 Jayco Jay Feather X-213
previously 2014 Forest River/Rockwood HW 277
2006 Ram 1500 4WD Crew with Firestone Airbags
Every weekend boondocking in the National Forests or at Lake Wellington
jimmoore13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2018, 07:36 PM   #28
Senior Member
 
W5CI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Carlisle, Arkansas
Posts: 1,379
Just to answer your question, there is no comparison to drum brakes and disc brakes on a fifth wheel trailer. the Disc are far superior
__________________
2005 Cedar Creek 30RLBS/TrailAir Hitch/ MORryde 7K IS/Disc Brakes/ PI PT-50 EMS/ RV Flex Armor Roof
2015 RAM 3500 DRW 6.7 Cummins 3.42/ Garmin 760RV
40 Gal TransferFlow fuel tank/ TST 507
Amateur Radio W5CI 2019 Days Camping 25
2020 Days Camping 7
W5CI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2018, 08:02 PM   #29
Senior Member
 
Blackrock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: SE Arizona's Gila Vally
Posts: 1,235
First of all can you drive? Are you aware of the feedback from your rig and the road conditions? The human factor has a lot to do with how well you can stop your rig.

You can have the biggest, best setup unit on the road but if you have no "Road Sense" then it's still a crap shoot what happens when you need to stop in a hurry.
__________________
2016 RAM 1500 - 2016 Keystone Laredo 265SRK
The road goes on forever and the party never ends.
Blackrock is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2018, 09:03 PM   #30
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: 8300 Feet - Rocky Mountains
Posts: 1,441
Last comment on the OP's original query.
Can your vehicle stop the roughly 3500 pound (empty) trailer without brakes.

Well, yes it can, but the law demands functioning trailer brakes on any trailer that weighs over 2000 pounds (+/- varies by state) fully loaded. So, in fact, your TV cannot safely stop that trailer if the trailer brakes fail.

One emergency stop? Sure. Limp home short distance? Sure. Tow that rig safely down a 5000 feet descent from a mountain pass (a routine experience here in Colorado)? No way except in 1st or 2nd gear...not using the brakes on the TV for anything other than emergencies.

According to your numbers, you are significantly exceeding your TV's tow rating. My HW 277 (single axle) weighs almost 4000 pounds ready to roll with water, propane, gear, etc. Your 296 probably gets close to 4500 pounds or more with a full water tank. So you are exceeding your TV's rated capacity by about 20% or more. That's a lot.

I don't expect you'll be buying a new TV, but caution is advised...and stay out of the mountains, because you'll struggle going up, and you'll struggle going down.

P.S. If by "van" you mean FWD minivan, that ain't no van. It can get the job done, but even with a WDH, everything you load in the van itself serves to UNload the drive wheels, and these are people haulers, not trucks. Keep an eye on your tires, etc. when towing. Again, if this is a mini-van, you're asking a lot from what amounts to a FWD car on steroids.
__________________
Jim & Renee
2020 Jayco Jay Feather X-213
previously 2014 Forest River/Rockwood HW 277
2006 Ram 1500 4WD Crew with Firestone Airbags
Every weekend boondocking in the National Forests or at Lake Wellington
jimmoore13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2018, 09:31 AM   #31
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 110
I'll give my $0.02, if it's still warranted.
We have a 26' pontoon, 2005, which on trailer is 30 feet from tongue to prop. We purchased it used, in 2009, and I thought it odd that it had no brakes on either axle. I did a bit of research, and found that for my money, and expertise, I could add electric brakes (yes, on a boat trailer) pretty easily. I did so, on both axles, and went with 5,000 lb brakes, even though my axles were 3,500 lb axles. Once I did so, I felt so much better about our towing situation, and yes, I noticed I could stop actually in a shorter distance when then pulling the boat (with my 2001 Silverado) than I could while not towing. It made that big of a difference.
With my 2015 Silverado (integrated brake controller) I think stopping distance is about the same, and I had to adjust the gain down a bit, so I would quit locking up the trailer brakes.
Our Forest River highwall pup stops very well when being pulled by our Traverse, or my Silverado. It has a single axle, with what I believe to be 3,500 lb electric drum brakes.
__________________
Greg, Janelle, Tenley, & Ellis
2019 Palomino Puma QBSS
TV: 2015 Silverado Z71
Other toys: 2007 Rinker Captiva w/Monster tower & rack
GXPWeasel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2018, 10:21 AM   #32
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Langley, BC
Posts: 888
Personally I am of the opinion drum brakes on our trailers are fine. But...

How good are your electrical splices and wiring? The splices in the junction box in our A-frame were terrible - wire nuts upside down and filled with water and poorly twisted together. The main pos. wire off the battery fell clear out of the crimp connection when I touched it. I put them all in a water-tight box and redid the splices. Splices at the brakes can be bad sometimes. Wiring can be too small and unable to deliver full braking force.

How often do you inspect your brakes? I check our brakes & bearings (and repack) every 2 years. (I also replaced the cheap Ch*nese bearings with Timken.) How do you know if your seals aren't leaking and have contaminated the brakes? They can even be leaking from the factory or from the dealer pumping in grease during the PDI. In 2 out of 3 TTs we've owned, seals were leaking from day one. In one case (fixed under warranty) all 4 wheels had leaking seals and grease everywhere inside and warped drums.

Drums brakes have ratings to go along with the axle ratings. Just what does that mean? Do they meet a standard like from ANSI, SAE or other org.? I suspect they install the least substantial brakes that will "just" do the job. They certainly do with ST tires.

What lining material is on the shoes? Are there different compounds available or do they just put on the cheapest that works? Drums are often poorly manufactured and can be way out of balance, so much so that balancing wheels is a waste of time.

Are there any road tests and evaluations out there that have compared drum to disc brakes?

Why don't they install beefier drum brakes to start with? Our TT has 10" brakes stock from the factory and 3500 lb axles. We upgraded to 5200 lb axles that came with 12" brakes. They work great. Have done over 20K miles up and down the coast in 7 states on all types of roads and they've never let us down, including hard stops. While I'd love to have disc brakes, I can't see the need. Drum brakes are available all the way up to 15K lbs per axle and have a LOT more surface area and material compared to the common 3500 lb ones.

While it's not quite the same thing, many older race cars that were based on production cars kept the original drum brakes because discs offered little or no improvement.
__________________
Gil & Deb & Dougal the Springer Spaniel
Langley, BC
myredracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2018, 10:33 AM   #33
clr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Sherman Illinois
Posts: 1,025
There are many documented test results from various sources that state basely that disk brakes on trailers stop in about 1/2 the distance of drum brakes. The following is from the Canadian Standards tests with Electric over Hydraulic Trailer Disc Brakes
Canadian Standards Tests show the Titan Disc Brake system stopping a 15,500 lb. trailer needs only 179 feet, using trailer brakes only with no truck brakes applied. This is a 100 feet shorter stopping distance than using truck and electric trailer brakes! So disk brakes are much better at stopping than drums. But any brakes are far better than no trailer brakes.
__________________
Chuck & Sandra
Engineer/Teacher
2010 F350 CC 6.4
2015 Prime Time Sanibel 3601
clr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2018, 10:35 AM   #34
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: California
Posts: 7,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by myredracer View Post
While it's not quite the same thing, many older race cars that were based on production cars kept the original drum brakes because discs offered little or no improvement.
They must have been VERY old race cars. I have friends that race. There are no drum brakes on race cars that they know.

I have disc brakes on my boat trailer. Compared to the drum brakes that were on there, it is night and day because I travel many mountain passes with my boat trailer. Any travel trailer owner that I know say the same thing when they put on disc brakes. The heat dissipation is just so much better. No adjusting. No worry about magnets failing which IS a problem over time.
babock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2018, 11:11 AM   #35
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Dayton Ohio
Posts: 1,882
Vintage race cars virtually all have drum brakes!

The use of disc brakes in place of drums was a good engineering move. They are cheaper, do not fade as easily, not so water sensitive and simple to service.

On my car 63, MG, most of the cars sold today, have brakes assembled wrong.

On the B adding rear disc brakes does little as to stopping distance.

One thing discs do not do is stop as fast. In addition more pedal pressure is needed. However, disc brakes are superior in every other category. Modern four wheel, abs brakes are far superior to antique drum brakes from the 50ís and will stop faster. Apples to apples ,no. These drums were all manual, adjust every 6,000 miles. Discs are self adjusting due to design.

On my Cc fiver if I apply my trailer brakes only, the truck will stop. Perhaps a little quicker than using the parking brake only. Normal I think.

Separate hydraulic brakes on a trailer would be better. No comparison.

How long electric drum brakes last is a good question. But, they are easy for me to check. Mine are auto adjust, which most are not.
tomkatb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2018, 11:55 AM   #36
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: California
Posts: 7,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomkatb View Post
On the B adding rear disc brakes does little as to stopping distance.
Of course, when stopping, the rear brakes may only have 25% of the weight because of the weight shift during the stop and the weight of the engine in the front.

The main advantage of disc over drum is the heat dissipation. That is why a disc brake vehicle can stop faster than a drum brake vehicle over many repeated stops or if you are traveling down a grade.

Drum brakes are just inferior to disc and that is why you rarely see a passenger vehicle or light truck with drums and only on the rear wheels if they do happen to have them.
babock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2018, 12:27 PM   #37
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,411
For the OP, I will give my story. I have always owned pop-ups or A-frames (when I have owned a camper) since 1988. In 2003, we were towing a 2000 Coleman Westlake (12ft box) with a 1992 Ford Explorer. We were headed to Cape Mendocino area (NorCal) from US101 on some roads through the coastal mountains that were posted "trailers not recommended". On the last of the downgrades, in the dark, the Explorer brakes (front disc/rear drum) faded and I lost my ability to stop the rig. By throwing the manual knob on the brake controller hard over, I was able to use the camper brakes, combined with what remained of the Explorer brakes, to eventually stop the rig. Wife and children got out, and rode with somebody else for the remainder of the downgrade.

After cleaning out my pants, I thought about what happened, and realized I hadn't adjusted the camper brakes/brake controller to have the camper take the share of the braking load it should. I fixed that at the campground, and now do a brake check at the beginning of every tow.

Fred W
2019 Flagstaff T21TBHW A-frame
2008 Hyundai Entourage
camping Colorado and adjacent states one weekend at a time
pgandw is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2018, 12:49 PM   #38
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Langley, BC
Posts: 888
Quote:
Originally Posted by babock View Post
They must have been VERY old race cars. I have friends that race. There are no drum brakes on race cars that they know.

I have disc brakes on my boat trailer. Compared to the drum brakes that were on there, it is night and day because I travel many mountain passes with my boat trailer. Any travel trailer owner that I know say the same thing when they put on disc brakes. The heat dissipation is just so much better. No adjusting. No worry about magnets failing which IS a problem over time.
I'm talking about vintage cars from the 70s and older. Have had a number of them of them over the years with rear drums & front discs. Have a '67 that is a rare factory race version and an early 60s replica race car that both came standard with rear drums but will be upgrading to rear discs because they're easier to inspect and service. But braking on a car is different due to the weight transfer to the front wheels under braking.
__________________
Gil & Deb & Dougal the Springer Spaniel
Langley, BC
myredracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2018, 08:25 PM   #39
Member
 
smitty31093's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Warner Robins, GA
Posts: 39
Electric brakes how effective are they?

I do not have a lot of knowledge on electric brakes. I have had 3 travel trailers and currently have a 40' Vengeance 5'er toy hauler. I have had TV with after market brake controllers and factory controllers. They all seemed to work fine and definitely made stopping the train easier. I did pick up on some good info while reading this thread. I will be packing my wheel bearings more often now that it has been brought to my attention that heat from the brake drums will melt bearing grease. I do know that surge brakes are hydraulic and therefore the only suitable brakes for a boat trailer if the trailer is ever going to backed into the water. Submersion and electric brakes do not mix.

Mini Vans were made to provide transportation for soccer Moms and to replace the families station wagon. Although a trailer hitch may be available for a minivan, that does not mean they are suitable TV's. Most minivan hitches are probably class 1 or class II at the most and rated for no more than 350 lbs tongue weight. The minivan may pull the boat OK, in a perfect scenario, since it does have surge brakes, . If Murphy's Law means anything to you, you may want to rethink the practice. I had a couple of minvans back in the day and found the transmissions to be prone to failure about the time the warranty expired, and I never pull trailers with them. Just a thought.

As far as the WDH with the pickup truck goes, that depends on how level the vehicle sits when the loaded trailer is hooked up to the loaded truck. A rig that sits low at the hitch point is prone to swaying at highway speeds, especially when meeting big trucks or hitting bumps like bridge joints. Since you already have the WDH why not be that much safer and use it? The purpose of the WDH is to bring the back of the TV up to level and the trailer level. This is like making your TV and trailer like one long vehicle. A sway control is cheap and makes a lot of difference in the way your rig handles at speed.

There is a distinct difference in can and should. Don't cheap out on safety to save a nickel. You are probably hauling some valuable cargo, since you do own a minivan. Good luck!
__________________
Steve & Paula Smith
Warner Robins, GA
New 2016 Vengeance 320A
Previously owned: 2014 Vengeance 25V, 2011 KZ 184,
2011 DIY 7 x 14 Enclosed Trailer,
Motorcycle pull behind cargo trailer with tent
smitty31093 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2018, 09:09 PM   #40
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 38
I tow a 10,000-lb plus 30' sport fishing boat with tri-axle trailer that has electric over hydraulic disk brakes on all 3-axles. Manually activating the trailer brakes and it will stop the tow vehicle - no problem. On the other end, my small enclosed tandem-axle motorcycle trailer is not much more than 3500-lb loaded. has electric drum brakes on both axles. Manually activating brakes will add drag to the tow vehicle and will eventually stop it too. Take away - your trailer brakes should have ability to slow the tow vehicle too. How much depends on weight ration of both AND how heavy the trailer brake action is set.
privateer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
brakes, electric

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Forest River, Inc. or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:59 AM.