propane question

[loschi]

Im a newbie to campers. I just bought a 2015 Forest River 246D. I've been out 2 weekends for 2 nights. Both nights were cold and we used the propane heat. Each weekend we also cooked with the propane external stove.

I ran out of propane the 2nd night of the second trip. The impression I had from the dealer and other friends was that the propane should last much longer than that. Also, my wife kept claiming she smelled propane and thought we had a leak. She's notoriously paranoid about that kind of thing, though, so I don't know how much sand to give it.

Just wondering if anyone thinks it's unusual to have run out of propane in that amount of time. I just have the one tank that comes off the lot with the camper.

Thanks
JON

[jeff64]

That pup probably carries 1-20# tanks and you are heating a tent with no insulating qualities. Do you carry an electric bathroom type heater, as most do. Run on low wattage setting only and let it stretch your lp. Even in this TT, if it's in the 40s, I can go through 1/2 tank in a couple nights and most TTs have 2-30# tanks. Answer to your ?... not really. Lp changes state at an accelerated rate in low temps to get the regulated 11" wc that your appliances require.

[5picker]

I'll assume the one tank only is a 20 pounder?
If it was cold enough that the furnace ran a fair amount, and you used it for a few other things, in two weekends (4 nights) you could easily deplete a 20 pound tank. Add to that the possibility the dealer had not completely filled it. (Some places short fill but charge for a full fill)

[ctdarcys]

It all depends on usage. I can say we got our entire season last year (10 trips) on 1 20# tank. Maybe 10 nights with heat, 4-5 days refrigerator, and warming baby food on the stove 3x a day.

[SuicideSaints]

I am assuming you have either a single or dual 20lb LP tanks?

If just a single tank that could be right depending on how much the heater was running to keep the trailer warm, canvas doesn't retain a whole lotta heat so the heater was probably running all night depending on setting?

Even a dual tank set up would be depleted quick in that scenario. Without knowing exactly how it was set and temp it is hard to guess but that doesn't seen out of the realm of possibilities.

As far as the suspected leak, was you CO and LP detector on and working? Did you smell LP too or just her?

[pgandw]

First, if anybody smells propane, chances are very high that you have a leak. An outside leak - like I had on my A-frame - does not set off the alarm, and cannot be smelled consistently due to wind. The leak turned out to be a bad brass casting where the rubber hose from the regulator joined the metal propane piping under the camper. Mine was found and fixed by the selling dealer after I smelled propane twice.


As others have pointed out, the heater in a PUP can use propane fairly quickly, even when you don't have a leak. We treated our PUP - 2000 Coleman Westlake - as a very nice tent that was off the ground. We used sleeping bags instead of sheets and blankets (we had been tent campers before). On cold nights (40s and below), I would set the heater to 50 - 55 degrees. Since we were dry camping, and I had dual 20lb bottles, battery usage by the heater was much more of a concern than propane. That said, I never used more than 1 full bottle in less than 10 days camping.


Based on that experience, when we bought our present A-frame, I installed dual batteries to run the heater for 4 nights in high 20 to 40 degree temps. Again, set the thermostat to 55 to reduce heater run time. The thermostat gets turned up to 70 for about 15 minutes when DW gets up.


However, the A-frame is much better insulated than a canvas pop-up, and there is about 1/3 the volume to heat/cool for the same size box. So I can safely plan on 5 hours heater run time, and still maintain 55 degrees inside on a 28 degree night.


Fred W
2014 Rockwood A122 A-frame
2000 Coleman Westlake PUP
camping Colorado and adjacent states one weekend at a time

[loschi]

Thanks for all the replies. It is a single 20lb tank and it was filled by the dealer so I suppose it may have been underfilled.

I'm going to fill it and take it out once more and troubleshoot it. If I smell propane, then I'll hit the dealer. My father in law was camping near us and sprayed the tank/hose with Windex and claimed it would "bubble" if there was a leak and there was no bubbling. But I'm not sure how scientific that all is.

I never thought of bringing along an electric heater. Good tip.

Thanks again.

[pgandw]

I tried the soap and bubble trick on my propane leak, but could not find it. But I have never done the soap and bubble well enough to find a known leak. Of course in this case, I wasn't checking a metal casting. I also went under the unit with a wrench, and checked to make sure all connections were tight. Again, this did not detect a bad casting that was leaking. The dealer did find the leak/bad casting with soap and bubbles, so I assume there is a little skill needed to do a good test that way.


Fred W

[bikendan]

Originally Posted by loschi

Thanks for all the replies. It is a single 20lb tank and it was filled by the dealer so I suppose it may have been underfilled.

I'm going to fill it and take it out once more and troubleshoot it. If I smell propane, then I'll hit the dealer. My father in law was camping near us and sprayed the tank/hose with Windex and claimed it would "bubble" if there was a leak and there was no bubbling. But I'm not sure how scientific that all is.

I never thought of bringing along an electric heater. Good tip.

Thanks again.

You need to check out Popup Gizmos.

[Mr. Dan]

Originally Posted by 5picker

Add to that the possibility the dealer had not completely filled it. (Some places short fill but charge for a full fill)

This possibility is at the top of my list.

[CedarCreekWoody]

If your tank doesn't have a guage weight it when full and check it before a trip as needed. The empty weight is stamped on the tank.

[KyDan]

While waiting on DW at a big box store the other day I walked over to the cage with LP tanks and saw a sign that said net weight 15 lbs. I get a better deal at my local hardware store and a FULL tank!

[CedarCreekWoody]

Tanks are to be left a bit under filled to allow for expansion. It is my understanding that a 20 lb fill leaves adequate expansion space. Certainly more than 15 lb!
Does anyone know for sure?

[5picker]

Today's tanks are built with a OPD (overfill protection device) specifically designed to prevent putting too much liquid in and leaving no room for expansion. The OPD valve will automatically shut off the fill flow when the tank is at the correct fill level. No need to underfill unless someone is trying to charge more for less.

[CedarCreekWoody]

Originally Posted by 5picker

Today's tanks are built with a OPD (overfill protection device) specifically designed to prevent putting too much liquid in and leaving no room for expansion. The OPD valve will automatically shut off the fill flow when the tank is at the correct fill level. No need to underfill unless someone is trying to charge more for less.

So a full tank should hold 20 lbs, correct?

[wmtire]

Originally Posted by CedarCreekWoody

So a full tank should hold 20 lbs, correct?

Correct, whatever pound cylinder it is, is designed to hold that much propane and still have room for the the 20% expansion. We have discussed and fully explained this before, and how many of the national propane exchanges underfill their cylinders (even got sued for it at one point).

We discussed it in pretty good detail in this previous thread (link below), and touched on the 20% expansion, how to weigh your tanks, determining propane levels according to weight, how the 20% expansion is rated against the water capacity of the cylinder and not the propane capacity, the national companies being sued, exchanging vs refilling, etc.

http://www.forestriverforums.com/for...tml#post292346

[Big Bill]

If the tank was exchanged at a hardware grocery etc , the fill is only 15#, they tell you that on the front of the cage , it is a safety thing , check it out

[wmtire]

Originally Posted by Big Bill

If the tank was exchanged at a hardware grocery etc , the fill is only 15#, they tell you that on the front of the cage , it is a safety thing , check it out

It is not a safety thing, as explained in the link I previously posted. They just short fill the cylinders due to economics, nothing else. They had to get sued in a class action settlement, which is the reason they had to put the 15# signage on their cages. For years they short-filled them with only 17 pounds, then dropped that even further to the current 15 pounds.

Stueve . Siegel . Hanson LLP | Blue Rhino Under-Filled Propane Tank Class Action Settlement

https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-...ction-lawsuit/

http://www.yourlawyer.com/topics/ove...o-price-fixing

and the Federal Trade Commissions take:

http://www.lexology.com/library/deta...d-ac7baeb6ab12

This is why it is usually better to get your propane cylinders refilled to their full capacity rather than exchanged at the national exchange cages (whose cylinders are only 75% filled).


This thread may help in that:

http://www.forestriverforums.com/for...day-76719.html

Click on Tractor Supply's link there, as they even talk about the short filling in the exchange cages in their advertising for refilling.

[nomad297]

Originally Posted by wmtire

It is not a safety thing, as explained in the link I previously posted. They just short fill the cylinders due to economics, nothing else. They had to get sued in a class action settlement, which is the reason they had to put the 15# signage on their cages. For years they short-filled them with only 17 pounds, then dropped that even further to the current 15 pounds.

Stueve . Siegel . Hanson LLP | Blue Rhino Under-Filled Propane Tank Class Action Settlement

https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-...ction-lawsuit/

Blue Rhino Antitrust Class Action Price Fixing - AmeriGas Partners LP and Ferrellgas LP are accused of fixing prices

and the Federal Trade Commissions take:

Blue Rhino and Amerigas agree to settle FTC claims of propane tank price-fixing - Lexology

This is why it is usually better to get your propane cylinders refilled to their full capacity rather than exchanged at the national exchange cages (whose cylinders are only 75% filled).

This thread may help in that:

http://www.forestriverforums.com/for...day-76719.html

This is helpful and accurate information.

I just can't believe that so many people are still unaware of this.

Bruce

[5picker]

Originally Posted by Big Bill

If the tank was exchanged at a hardware grocery etc , the fill is only 15#, they tell you that on the front of the cage , it is a safety thing , check it out

As wmtire eloquently explained... it is NOT a safety thing.

I believe that was verbiage carried over from the older tank days before OPD's and these companies continue to use those words to trick people into believing a tank can only be filled to 3/4 capacity or all hell is going to break loose.

Back in the day, I used to help fill propane tanks and the correct procedure for a proper fill was you either weighed the tank before filling and then add propane to get the proper weight (math involved) or upon weighing (before filling) if you found the tank was completely empty, some filling stations had the ability to dispense the exact correct amount of liquid. You could set the pump for that amount and then it would shut off upon reaching that amount.

The problem with all that was... during filling, there was a bleed screw on the side of the tank valve that had to be opened during filling to allow gas to escape so the liquid propane could fill into the tank. And, it was the fill operators responsibility to stop the fill flow when the tank weighed the correct amount.

If the correct amount was dispensed, nothing but gas would come out the bleed screw and there was room left in the tank for expansion of the liquid propane.

Unfortunately, many filling operators found it easier to forego the weighing (too much math involved) and simply filled the tanks until liquid propane came out the bleed screw. At that point, the tank was overfilled and there was no room for expansion, leaving the opportunity for bad things to happen. (especially if the tank sat out in the sun)

Today's tanks with the OPD valve eliminate all the chance of overfilling (that which I described above) so there is ABSOLUTELY NO NEED to short fill unless the filling/exchange station is trying to make a quick buck.