Water level for our battery

[Sean Bryans]

We recently purchased a Rockwood 2317 2014. I am doing some regular maintenance today and decided to check the battery. I popped the covers off and found very little to no water in any of these ports. How much water should be in them?

Thanks.

[Sean Bryans]

Originally Posted by Sean Bryans

We recently purchased a Rockwood 2317 2014. I am doing some regular maintenance today and decided to check the battery. I popped the covers off and found very little to no water in any of these ports. How much water should be in them?

Thanks.

Here is a pic

[BooBoo23]

The battery water level should be right to the bottom of the opening under the cap. If there was very little water in the battery it may be toast. It can warp the plates and short them together. If you add water you should used distilled water you can purchase at any grocery just make sure it is distilled and not purified water. Make sure you convertor is not overcharging the battery also, causing to water to boil away. Most likely the TT you purchased hasn't seen maintenance in a while. It is good to check the battery once a month. I'll bet the anode rod in the WH is in need of replacement also, as well as a good WH flush.

[Sean Bryans]

Thanks for the help

[rlh1957]

Any recommendations on how often to do cap off battery inspection?


Anode replacement interval?

[BooBoo23]

Since you already experienced a low water level in the battery you may want to check it in another month to see that it is still topped off. Otherwise check it a couple times a year should be sufficient. As noted you may have had damage to the battery from the low water level so if it fails you will know the reason. If the plates were not exposed it should be OK. As for the anode check it annually, usually when you take it out to drain and flush out the WH to winterize is the best time. Some people do it more often but not necessary.

[Bluepill]

Just to be clear about the proper level refer to this video:

https://youtu.be/JhGYimoFNIY

Also note that the "Full" level is only accurate with a fully charged battery. If the battery is not fully charged, just add enough to cover the top of all of the plates. Then charge, let it sit an hour, then adjust levels.

[clintbonnie73]

Had problems with Interstate batteries... 12V.. My new 2017 Rockwood is on its second set already.. (switched to 6V)
After filling to proper levels and recharging for a couple of days.. would suggest buying a Battery Hydrometer from say Auto Zone.. and check each cell for "charge level".. My bet is your batteries are as they say.. Toast.
If you do dry camping, suggest you replace your 12v batteries with 6v golf cart batteries.. They will preform much better and last longer.. just wire them in "series"..

[jimmoore13]

This is a canned diatribe on batteries excerpted from my 20-page FAQ on these campers.
It's not tailored to your question. It's a response to a similar question. But it answers your question and more.
Batteries and battery maintenance are weak links in the chain. So here goes.

1. Your fundamental question was "how long." I boondock almost exclusively with just one Group 24 12-volt battery. It came with my camper in spring 2014. Still going strong. I can get 4 days out of the battery while using: water pump, fridge on propane, hot water heater, liberal use of the furnace (and the fan is a power hog). By day 4 the pump will stop working and I previously had to fire up the generator.
2. What could go wrong with your battery? If you discharge it too much, you'll ruin it. 8 volts is WAAAAAY too much.
3. Off season, remove the battery and store it inside, sitting on a board (not concrete) and charge it occasionally with a "maintenance charger." If you don't have a smart charger...not just any old maintenance charger...charge it every few weeks, but then remove the charger.
4. When installed in the camper, you should either manually manage its charge by connecting the camper to AC for about 70 hours every 2 weeks or so, OR you can disconnect the battery so parasitic losses don't drain it, OR connect it to a sophisticated battery maintainer charger like a battery tender...but not just any battery tender, a "smart" battery tender. There's a difference.
5. Running dry also destroys batteries. Get a gallon of distilled water at the supermarket and a turkey baster to fill the cells. Keep the battery full of water. Check it every month or so...especially when you are working the hell out of it. LOTS of charge/discharge cycles will dry it out.
ALSO, batteries will disgorge water as they rumble over rough roads. It literally can spill out of the vents. Check it after a trip down a rough road.
6. DON'T OVERCHARGE THE BATTERY! Unless you replace your factory converter with a super-duper converter that has a smart charger, your camper charger is a "stupid" charger. It will overcharge the battery if you don't disconnect it and manage the charge manually. 70 hours is the MAX amount of time it takes the stupid charger to fully charge a "dead" battery. DEAD is 10-Volts. You can connect to shore power indefinitely if you are living in the camper and exercising the battery, but if the camper is idle, pull the plug and charge every couple weeks...or get a smart charger so you can set it and forget it.
Overcharging leads to sulfating, and it can be dealt with, but rescuing a battery from sulfation is a poor substitute for not sulfating it in the first place. Sulfation and How to Prevent it - Battery University
7. Camper lights are a waste of power. Get a propane mantle lantern and some good LED lanterns. A mantle lantern is VERY bright, and LED lanterns are about as bright as the camper's interior lights. Leave your camper lights off.
These little babies make an awesome addition for interior lighting: https://smile.amazon.com/EverBrite-C...ghts+with+hook
I hang one on our PUP bed roof pipe, one in the bathroom, and one on either end of the camper outdoors hooked to the bed support poles. Then I use the mantle over the kitchen and one LED lantern over the dinette. Added bonus with the mantle is that it adds some heat to the space during the evening.
These are terrific, too: https://smile.amazon.com/Etekcity-Po...ttery+operated
8. Multiple 6-volt deep cycle batteries are great, but you don't just need the batteries. You need a place to put them. I don't have room on my A-frame for a 2nd battery box. Propane plumbing blocks that space, and I'd have to have a welder fabricate a custom mount for a battery box. You could also throw a 2nd 12 volt battery (fully charged) in your TV, install a disconnect on the + side of main battery, and then use jumper cables to connect the spare to your negative terminal and the camper side of the disconnect switch.
9. Before you go crazy and buy a fancy battery, like an AGM, or really go nuts and buy something like a Lithium Ion, BE SURE THE CAMPER'S CHARGER IS COMPATIBLE WITH YOUR FANCY NEW BATTERY. Most are not. That could be an expensive mistake.
10. If you really want to solve your power problem and boondock beyond your camper's capacity, go solar. More on that is available.

[jimmoore13]

This is a link to a photo depicting the battery cells with the covers removed:
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...9RWFfCDQKo0eYA

Water should fill the cells into the notched portion of the port. You can fill them to the top, but some water/acid may ooze out. Fill them to about half way up the notch. Used distilled water (from the supermarket) to prevent deposits in tap water from damaging the battery.

Check the water level in the battery every few weeks...at least 4 or 5 times during the camping season. As mentioned in my previous response, all the charge/discharge cycles "consume" water and water can "splash" out through the vents on rough roads -- and water evaporates through the vents. The life of an RV battery is torture compared to the easy life of a battery in a car/truck. A vehicle's suspension is far more smooth-riding that the primitive ox-cart ride of a travel trailer, and a car battery is seldom discharged much at all. An RV battery, on the other hand, is deeply discharged, and it undergoes extended charging...sometimes for days.

[camaraderie]

Jim Moore...there is so much I disagree with in your post #9 I don't know where to begin. But for starters:
-There is NO need to bring batteries inside for the winter OR set them off concrete floor...that ended LONG decades ago. A fully charged battery with hold over a 50% charge for 6 months during winter weather if the negative post is disconnected and there is no chance of freezing unless the weather is 20 below AND 6 months has passed. Note the REQUIREMENT for the battery to be fully charged which protects it to 91 below zero.

You have no battery monitor so you don't have a clue how deeply you are discharging your battery. If you go below 50% charge you are damaging your battery cycles and 50% can only be measured with a REAL monitor OR a battery that is NOT in use for at least 24 hours or with a load pile applied to it while disconnected and a resultant voltage reading of 12.1 or less. NOTE a connected battery reading 12.1V IS NOT at 12.1...and you don't know where it really is. Batteries are DEAD at 10.5V.

-Your single group 24 battery has when new...75 amp hours at most. This leaves you less than 40 amp hours of battery power to use without damage and you are claiming it lasts 4 days...so you are using 10 amp hours a day?? No way. You are actually killing your battery if that is ALL you are using to power your needs. The heater fan will eat that in less than one night.

Your #4 point needs to simply be thrown into the trash bin...it is hopelessly wrong and out of date.

-#5 assumes boil off of distilled water. This will not happen with any battery charger installed in an FR product in the last 5 years or more like the OPs. Once filled properly...you need only check every 90 days or so. And modern batteries do NOT discharge water on rough roads. I drove over 15 miles of rutted dirt today...and not a drop.

-The OP has a 2014 charger and it is a 3 stage which everyone should be using. There is no worry of overcharging while in use. Float stage is like a battery tender

-Any modern charger of at least 10% of battery amp hours (i.e. 7.5 amps in your case) will fully charge a HALF DISCHARGED battery in 12 hours...not 70. -Any modern charger with 20% capacity will do the same job in 6-7 hours. (BTW I lived for 6 years solely on my batteries and genny to charge them. I KNOW how long it takes to get to 100%)

-Overcharging has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH SULFATION. With a dumb charger you can overheat batteries and destroy them. Sulfation is something else entirely....preventable with a smart 4 stage charger OR a 15V+ temperature monitored charge until the H2SO4 bubbles once every couple of months. Temp must not be allowed to go higher than 120degress.

ALL current modern charges are compatible with AGMS. NO current chargers being installed as factory equipment are compatible with Lithium LiFEPo4 batteries despite the claims being made by those who wish to sell these batteries. AGMS are not a good choice for MOST campers even though they can be properly charged...but they are an excellent choice for some.

[jimmoore13]

Originally Posted by camaraderie

Jim Moore...there is so much I disagree with in your post #9 I don't know where to begin. But for starters:
<<SNIP>>

I'll accept your critique and will make some adjustments to my FAQ.

Many of your responses are subjective choices. E.g. bringing the battery inside vs. disconnecting and leaving it outside. It's FAR safer to bring it inside. Even more so if you must store your camper away from power and easy access at an RV storage lot.

My 4 year old 12-volt group 24 speaks for itself...including getting 4 days out of it (with no solar charger at the time and running my 2KW inverter generator only twice a day to power a microwave and espresso maker...but total run time, under constant heavy appliance loads, totals about 35 minutes or so - 10 minutes x 2 for the microwave, and whatever amount of time it takes to brew espresso and steam froth the milk).

I did explain my frugal use of 12 volt power...reserving it for the pump, furnace, hot water heater, and fridge, and relying on a mantle lantern and several LED lanterns to supply lighting.

I'll continue using a board under my stored battery...on my concrete...if only to protect the concrete. My board is pretty nasty looking after many years of holding my batteries through the winters--about 8 years now with two campers. The regular discharge/charge cycles during storage have left the board pretty grimy. But you're right. The board is no longer essential to prevent discharge...just a precaution and protection for the floor.

I've topped off my battery at least 4 times this season. In every case, it took water to return it to it full condition...never much, but in each case, the water was well below the fill ring. Again, my battery speaks for itself in terms of durability and power delivery. Not checking for 90 days is both risky and bad advice to others. From source 1 below: "Wet Cells require regular, periodic checks of electrolyte levels. In hot weather and following extended high-speed use, they may need to be topped off every few days or weeks." That's from a motorcycle site where batteries can be shaken to death--just as they can be on the A-frame of a PUP towed through demanding off-road conditions.

Your claim that a vented flooded cell battery will not disgorge water through the vents on a rough road is unfounded. Vents that must pass gas can pass water, and under the right conditions (washboard), the vertical motions of the battery can be extreme...especially in a plastic battery box on the A-frame where no hold-down frame keeps the battery from shaking--as compared to the starting battery in your tow vehicle that is held in place with a steel frame and j-bolts attached to the support plate.

A good portion of my info came from sources such as these:
https://rideapart.com/articles/lead-acid-battery-basics
or:
RV Battery Basics: Get the Best Performance | www.trailerlife.com (the printed article was longer).
or:
Basic to Advanced Battery Information from Battery University
or:
What You Need To Know About Your RV Batteries - RV Information (RV Maintenance)
and other sources....
But some of it came from other posts from senior members of the forum--e.g. the 10 volts vs. 10.5 volts.

I'll review my FAQ and make corrections such as the voltage that is thought to be fully discharged...10.5 volts vs. 10 volts.
I will also review the causes of sulfation. There is considerable disparity on this depending on the source...many report that it's related to over and under charging.

I will modify the "board" comment, but the indoor storage recommendation will remain.

I confess I can't recall the source for converter/battery compatibility. Several of the sources above touch on this, but I may have confused gel with AGM. LiIon is another subject, and the recommendation stands, as does the recommendation to ensure your "charger" is compatible with your battery, because all sources agree that some are and some aren't.

If you have evidence to suggest that a typical factory supplied converter is more sophisticated than I've stated and won't overcharge (or overheat) the battery than I have suggested, please provide it. All sources that touch on this subject clearly state that the factory supplied converter contains a dumb charger that can severely damage/overcharge the battery if left connected.
As for the rate of charge, I'd like to see that evidence as well. I will investigate further and adjust the number. Claims are all over the ballpark, and some of the issue may be related to loads placed on the system during pre-trip prep.

My recommendations on checking electrolyte levels not only stand but I'll emphasize them. I suggest you check your electrolyte levels more frequently. 90 days is not often enough for a battery in hard service (frequent deep discharge/charge cycles and serious off-road jostling). You may be lucky regarding electrolyte loss as I appear to be lucky with my battery's durability under load in boondocking conditions.

My 4 day experience described in my FAQ was last Labor Day weekend, and I assure you that we ran the furnace (quite a lot) at night (it gets cold at 8500 feet in the Rockies), ran almost 50 gallons of water through the pump (26 onboard, and 28 in jugs used to refill the holding tank), had the fridge on, and had the hot water heater on. About noon on the 4th day, during a shower, the pump started to dribble, and the lights would not turn on. I fired up the generator and put some charge in the battery for about 3 hours...just enough until we were able to connect to shore power at home. But my little 15 amp generator can't perform miracles.

Now with solar (in sunny Colorado), I get to dusk with a full charge every night, and my solar charge controller indicates nearly 100 amp-hours available from a 4 year old Group 24 that should only hold 85 amp hours at most. (I will amend that number to 70-85.) The reading on the charge controller may be inaccurate for any number of reasons, but that's where the 100 came from.
With solar, I also use a 400 watt inverter to run 2 x 180 watt electric blankets for 30 minutes before bedtime to take the chill off the bed...about 15 amp-hours all by itself. Voltage current resistance and electric power general basic electrical formulas mathematical calculations calculator formula for power calculating energy work equation power law watts understandimg general electrical pie chart electricity calculation. I also use the stereo until about mid-afternoon to give the panel time to top off the battery.
I was not so profligate with power prior to solar, but considering that the furnace only draws about 2.5 amps -- Frequently Asked Questions | Roberts Sales - Denver, Colorado -- and the duty cycle on a cold night might be 50% for roughly 8 hours, that's 10 amp-hours per day, plus the other lesser loads (pump, hot water, fridge on propane with 12-volt control/spark). The 4-day scenario was 3 late summer nights supported by minimal generator charging - this is not a stretch mathematically on roughly 40 available amp-hours. I did two nights/three days in March with overnight temps at freezing (ice skimming over the dogs' water bowl), and the furnace ran essentially continuously during the two nights...again plenty of power remaining when we broke camp. And considering the age of the battery and it's still performing well in its 4th season, it's clearly not abused. I simply take good care of it.

I found a new info source that I think is superior to many of the others, and I'll share it here: https://www.solar-electric.com/learn...our%20Capacity

[babock]

Sulfation is caused in a battery when ever it is not fully charged. More sulfation will occur the more discharged the battery is. That's why charging the battery before winter and only recharging every few months is going to cause sulfation to occur.

Best thing you can do for batteries in the winter is to leave them on a good smart charger 24/7 so that they are always 100% charged. A good charger will keep them at a float level so that they won't discharge or overcharge.

Unless the temperature in your area gets down to -92°F, your 100% charged battery will not freeze. Batteries can be stored right on the concrete. Putting them on a board does absolutely nothing. If there is no chance of them getting stolen, there is no reason to take them in and storing them in a warm area. Batteries actually self discharge less at colder temps.

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by babock

Unless the temperature in your area gets down to -92°F, your 100% charged battery will not freeze. Batteries can be stored right on the concrete. Putting them on a board does absolutely nothing. If there is no chance of them getting stolen, there is no reason to take them in and storing them in a warm area. Batteries actually self discharge less at colder temps.

When I used to travel to Alaska for work it wasn't uncommon for people living in Fairbanks and North to bring the batteries in from their cars at night. At 50 below a battery looses a major part of it's capacity. Now there are reliable battery heater plates or blankets, along with battery tenders, that are plugged in at night along with the engine heater.

"Boondocking" at sub zero temps may not be all that popular but I did live in my old Terry through a Colorado winter while having a house built. -15 degrees one morning. Furnace NEVER shut off that week (fed from a 250 gallon tank the gas company set for me). Was glad I didn't loose power during that time because there was no way I'd get even half a day on the battery at those temps.

[babock]

Originally Posted by TitanMike

When I used to travel to Alaska for work it wasn't uncommon for people living in Fairbanks and North to bring the batteries in from their cars at night. At 50 below a battery looses a major part of it's capacity.

That is a problem if you are trying to start an engine with a very cold battery. What we are discussing is the storage of batteries in off season I thought.

[jimmoore13]

Originally Posted by TitanMike

When I used to travel to Alaska for work it wasn't uncommon for people living in Fairbanks and North to bring the batteries in from their cars at night. At 50 below a battery looses a major part of it's capacity. Now there are reliable battery heater plates or blankets, along with battery tenders, that are plugged in at night along with the engine heater.
<<SNIP>>

True...the same for me as a kid in upstate NY near the Canadian border, where temps got nearly as cold. Fortunately, batteries are better, and temps are not as cold. But this does speak to the fact that it is needlessly stressful for a battery to be left outside in the winter. Just reading a long-term test of a Tesla, and the test was conducted in Ann Arbor, MI. During the winter, the LiIon batteries would lose nearly 100 miles of range compared to their summer range capacity on a full charge.

I might be reluctant to bring 4 to 6 large batteries inside over the winter, and I'd find a better solution such as a top quality maintenance charger and protecting it from the elements. But if I had to store my RV in a storage lot with no power nearby, hardship or not, I'd bring the batteries home and store them inside. With my single Group 24 on a PUP, it's less trouble to bring it inside than it is to work out some other arrangement to maintain it on the A-frame or upgrade the stock converter/charger to a more sophisticated unit.

[jimmoore13]

Originally Posted by babock

That is a problem if you are trying to start an engine with a very cold battery. What we are discussing is the storage of batteries in off season I thought.

Actually, this thread was a query about topping off the electrolyte, and it evolved into a more wide-ranging discussion of battery care and maintenance.

[babock]

Originally Posted by jimmoore13

Actually, this thread was a query about topping off the electrolyte, and it evolved into a more wide-ranging discussion of battery care and maintenance.

True...kinda got blown out of the water with post #9.

[camaraderie]

Originally Posted by babock

True...kinda got blown out of the water with post #9.

Heh...guilty as charged!
Before I comment further on Jims response I wanted to address the issue of cold weather depleting batteries.
Exactly the opposite is true. Cold inhibits the chemical reaction in batteries so they RETAIN their charge BETTER but you can't use em until it is warmer.
If you take two identical batteries and fully charge them and leave one in a snow bank and the other at room temperature for a month...then bring them both up to room temperature and measure them...the snowbank battery may lose one or two percent of its' charge and the room temp batt will lose 10% or more in self discharge.
It ain't a dead battery that can't start your car...it is a cold one! (unless of course it is dead too!)
That's why cold cranking amps (CCA) are a big deal in starting batteries... testing the cold cranking amps delivered at 0 degrees for machines that need more amps to start than in the summer!

[camaraderie]

I'm just going to respond to several sections of your comments within the quote below and in red to avoid confusion!

Originally Posted by jimmoore13

I'll accept your critique and will make some adjustments to my FAQ.Thanks

Many of your responses are subjective choices. E.g. bringing the battery inside vs. disconnecting and leaving it outside. It's FAR safer to bring it inside. Even more so if you must store your camper away from power and easy access at an RV storage lot.
I was responding to your comment that one must bring batteries inside for the winter. That is simply not true if one does what I said to do. Batteries self discharge at very low rates in the winter and will not freeze as I stated and can be proven on the Trojan battery site. There is NO need to charge frequently or maintain a charge. Check as often as you like but until the voltage reads 12.3 or less you are safe from freezing.

My 4 year old 12-volt group 24 speaks for itself...including getting 4 days out of it ...
Your experience is irrelevant because it isn't science and you aren't and haven't measured anything. What we do know is that you have definitely shortened the life your battery would otherwise have had because you describe running it till it doesn't work anymore. What the science tells us is that running a battery to 90% discharge will get you half as many cycles as if you run it to 50% before recharging. Since you also described not fully recharging it...you are also doing exactly what creates sulfation.
Many people get 8-12 years out of well maintained batteries. Four years of use is nothing without measurements and you are incapable of making them with your current set up. If you're happy...that's great...but you should not be recommending treatment that damages batteries to anyone else.

I've topped off my battery at least 4 times this season. In every case, it took water to return it to it full condition...never much, but in each case, the water was well below the fill ring.
Not checking for 90 days is both risky and bad advice to others. From source 1 below: "Wet Cells require regular, periodic checks of electrolyte levels. In hot weather and following extended high-speed use, they may need to be topped off every few days or weeks." That's from a motorcycle site where batteries can be shaken to death--just as they can be on the A-frame of a PUP towed through demanding off-road conditions.
Of course you lose water...you have a dumb charger. The OP does not. Since we're trading anecdotes...my own batteries have gone 6 months now and tow major trips ...each with thousands of miles on the odometer and the one I'm on now with lots of gravel road...and I STILL don't need to add water because I have a 4 stage charger from Forest River and it doesn't boil off electrolyte. It also doesn't lose any water from rough roads. Batteries won't unless you tilt them or overcharge them. That said...the best advice for a newbie is to check them once a month for one month. Then base future checking on whether they needed any water after a month. Then after 2 months..then after 90 days. Unless you have a dumb charger or do wheelies...you shouldn't need to add water very often.


I will also review the causes of sulfation. There is considerable disparity on this depending on the source...many report that it's related to over and under charging.
There is no debate about sulfation. And there is CERTAINLY NO MFR. who says sulfation is caused by over charging as you stated originally. Sulfation is caused when PBSo4 is deposited in crystal form on the plates of a battery...causing active plate area loss and a resulting loss of capacity. The cause is undercharging or leaving uncharged. Furthermore...the sulfation tricks the charger into thinking the battery is fuller than it is and it charges less....in a vicious cycle that ends in failure. Sulphation will happen to ALL wet cell batteries at different speeds due to owner practices...and all mfr's recommend Equalization Charging to bust up the sulphation (15+Volts, caps off, temp monitoring below 120 degrees) and extend the life of the battery. Modern 4 stage charges have a timed EQ charge cycle built in to make it less of a chore.

I confess I can't recall the source for converter/battery compatibility. Several of the sources above touch on this, but I may have confused gel with AGM. Yes...Gel cells are completely incompatible as drop ins on the vast majority of chargers...even though they were sold as such (like lithium today). The failure rates of Gels because of this lie were enourmous and they have virtually disappeared from the consumer market as a result. AGM's are fine...but not with dumb chargers.

LiIon is another subject, and the recommendation stands, as does the recommendation to ensure your "charger" is compatible with your battery, because all sources agree that some are and some aren't. NONE are and those selling drop in lithiums aren't going to tell you that. This is NOT to say that lithium is bad...it is tremendous in lots of ways...but it takes a lot more than a drop in if you don't want to throw out a single $900 battery early.

If you have evidence to suggest that a typical factory supplied converter is more sophisticated than I've stated and won't overcharge (or overheat) the battery than I have suggested, please provide it. All sources that touch on this subject clearly state that the factory supplied converter contains a dumb charger that can severely damage/overcharge the battery if left connected.
My evidence is my own FR charger and what Brian Clements of Forest River has said here about the entire class C line dating back 5 years with multistage chargers. My own supplied OEM charger is a 70 amp unit with 4 stage charging from Progressive dynamics. You can read to this linked page that this "charge wizard" will extend typical battery life 2 to 3 times over the standard (dumb) charger. Charge Wizard RV Battery Charging
I think the fact that they call stage 3 "Storage Mode" (which is the same 13.2 volts everyone uses in stage 3) speaks to the fact that leaving the smart charger plugged in is what the mfr. expects and approves. Nowhere is a warning to unplug.
As for the rate of charge, I'd like to see that evidence as well. I will investigate further and adjust the number. Claims are all over the ballpark, and some of the issue may be related to loads placed on the system during pre-trip prep.
I don't know what "claims are all over the ballpark" or "pretrip prep loads" have to do with anything since EVERY 3 stage charger can do exactly what I said and the only people claiming long times are people with dumb taper chargers. The same link I provided just above scrolls down to a charging chart where you can see the red line shows 100% charging of a totally flat (10.5V) battery in 17 hours. It goes a lot quicker if you start at 12.2 (50%) and a far cry from the 60 hours in your FAQ.