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Old 02-09-2013, 11:39 PM   #21
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Hmmm. So what would neutralize it? Because I know sulfuric acid will remain an acid- as my grandpa use to keep some in old coke bottles.
It is not "neutralized". It is converted to electricity.

When recharged; the sulphates are driven off the lead plates back into the water to become sulfuric acid again.

The chemistry of the reaction is listed below.
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:49 AM   #22
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Ok, I'm learning here. I understand what your saying herk. Is there a time frame or some thing to know- besides a test strip, when the acid is nolonger acid, or is it more in therory.
Reason why I ask is we always have "dead" batteries laying around at work and my shed, but when they leak it still stains or etches the floor or eats stuff up.
- be nice to just dump the water out if it was safe- I just don't know when or if it would be safe.
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:16 AM   #23
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Sorry- phone died.

I know some "dead" batts are just in low 12 volts with no amps, but I'm talking dead-dead, like not even dimming a dome light.
- I've got a couple dead-dead batts down at a tractor shed (been sitting there for months after dieing) I'm going to mess with tomarrow. Ill grab my dvom and some baking soda and see if I get any reaction from either! Kind of wondering if they ever loose all voltage if there is some moisture in there.

All this has me curious- but I don't think ill try to freeze any battery juice-dw would freek out for ssure!
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Old 02-10-2013, 03:39 AM   #24
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Something I have been thinkng about regarding battery water. What would happen if some distilled vinegar were added instead of distilled water?
Just curious and this seems like the place to ask since the subject of batteries has come up.
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Old 02-10-2013, 06:06 AM   #25
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As Herk explained the B+ electrolyte is a mixture of 64% H2O and 36% H2SO4 (sulfuric acid). That's what it needs to charge and discharge. The H2O breaks down as it discharges and recombines as it is charged. When gassing occurs in the recharging process some H and O are lost out the vent holes and should be replaced. My old professor used to tell the story about when water is added he wanted to know how much in ounces. He maintained that about 1-OZ of water added per 1,000 miles of charging.discharging. I don't believe there was much scientific evidence to back up his story but you get the idea. There are many variables to also consider. How fast is the charging? How old is the B+? What is the quality? What type of B+ is it, etc,etc?? A lot of water loss over a short period of time either shorted cell or over-charging. I think this B+ oil falls into the category of the fuel line magnets used to align the hydrogen molecules to improve mileage. DON'T WASTE YOUR $$$$$ If it was that good Detroit would already be using it. The only thing you ever add to a conventional wet cell is good old distilled water.
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Old 02-10-2013, 08:01 AM   #26
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Ok, I'm learning here. I understand what your saying herk. Is there a time frame or some thing to know- besides a test strip, when the acid is nolonger acid, or is it more in therory.
Reason why I ask is we always have "dead" batteries laying around at work and my shed, but when they leak it still stains or etches the floor or eats stuff up.
- be nice to just dump the water out if it was safe- I just don't know when or if it would be safe.
Batteries "die" for many reasons. Cracked plates are the number one cause of car battery failures because the lead plates are so thin.

Those batteries are no good but the electrolyte is still strong "acid." EACH CELL must be checked because ONE bad cell will ruin a battery; yet the other 5 cells are still "good."

Use a hydrometer to determine if the acid is still acid. A Specific Gravity reading of 1.000 is water; anything higher has some acid.

A fully charged electrolyte has enough sulfuric acid to read 1.277 a totally discharged one is "near" 1.000

This is the only way to tell if the electrolyte is completely discharged.
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Old 02-10-2013, 08:35 AM   #27
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On a side note, if you encounter a battery with frozen electrolyte, do NOT attempt to jump it or hook a charger to it. Scary and dangerous things can happen. It can explode.
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Old 02-10-2013, 08:55 AM   #28
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So the acid turning to water is more in theory or a scientific happening or event. I'm guessing that you and I will never encounter such an event?

And I'm pretty sure I will never actually see a froze batt. In my life time!
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:50 PM   #29
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If you do see a frozen battery it will be a chilling experience.
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Old 02-10-2013, 05:26 PM   #30
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So the acid turning to water is more in theory or a scientific happening or event. I'm guessing that you and I will never encounter such an event?

And I'm pretty sure I will never actually see a froze batt. In my life time!
Theory? Happening? Event?
I am confused.

That is how the battery works. Science or Magic; your choice.

This is what happens when you try to charge a frozen battery.
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Old 02-10-2013, 06:54 PM   #31
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Ok I did more research and found a few answers.
To Op- a historical name for sulfuric (or sulphuric- alternitave names) is Oil of Vitriol, so maybe someone confused that with some thing mineral based.

- to the whole freezing batteries situation- I didn't see how the acid would be removed, leaving water- actually what happens is the opposite acording to my reaserch.

#1 automotive sulfuric acid is about 35% acid
#2 100% sulfuric acid becomes a solid at 50°f, and boils at 639°f and will break down at that point.
#3 when sulfuric acid is diluted with water it will drop the temperature that the acid becomes a solid. The % of the mixture will vary the temp that it becomes solid- pretty much works the opposite of a water / antifreeze mixture.
#4 when water evaporates from the acid/water mixture (which can happen at room temps- but much more effecient when at a higher temp) it the acid gains a higher concentration.
#5 that is why you add water to a battery- not acid- acid will kill it
#6 that is why hot and cold is hard on car batteries- the heat under the hood in summer evaporates the water out of the acid, and left unchecked come winter the more concentrated acid turns to a solid at a warmer temp than normal.

#7 when heat is added to a sulfuric acid in a solid form it liquifys extremely quickly- so that is why you don't jump start a "frozen" battery
#8 most people, including my self untill now don't know this and this is why they say the battery can "freeze" - which according to what I have seen in my research is the acid is just turning to a solid. I guess its a freeze of sorts but more apropriatly called "a solid"
#9 the battery acid/water mixture can freeze- but like turbs said it is a extremely low temp like in the -70°s range- which most of us will never see.
#10 a slow warm up of a battery in a solid state- not like in #9 can bring the acid back to a liquid and more usable state.

I'm done now- all this makes more scence now. Btw the oppinion based answers on the web are of no help, but the scientific info on the web brings clarity to it- just look at acid info, all the battery info seems to be opinions.

Millertime over and out for good on this topic.
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Old 02-10-2013, 07:21 PM   #32
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Luke,

I am very happy that you are happy.

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Villanova University
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Old 02-10-2013, 07:25 PM   #33
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Post 12 by Herk said it all. H2so4 (36%) and H2O (64%) make up B+ electrolyte. That has been the industry standard for ever. You can't add more acid to make your battery better. All wet cells deliver about 2.1 volts per cell. Now the H2SO4 is already diluted with water. I don't know what the dilution ration is for battery acid but it is not fully concentrated H2SO4. As the B+ looses it's charge as explained in post 12 it loses H2SO4. The lower the charge the less H2SO4. The lower the charge the more likely the diluted solution will freeze. If it's fully charged it won't freeze until it get really cold but it does become less efficient. Absolute Zero is when all molecular motion stops (-459.67) Most water is lost due to the charging process and not evaporation. It's called gassing. When it bubbles it also brings some H2SO4 with it and that's why terminals corrode. Batteries explode when a spark occurs either in or around a B+ that has been charging. The charging creates the gassing and the two gases hydrogen (very explosive) and oxygen (best oxidizer) are ignited.
Batteries today have changed a bunch. Seldom do we see a B+ that has open cells so a hydrometer won't work. The hydrometer tells you how much H2SO4 is still in the solution therefore its state of charge. See Herk's chart.
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Old 02-10-2013, 08:10 PM   #34
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According to theTrojan battery users guide, you can also use de-ionized and reverse osmosis filtered water.

http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/T...UsersGuide.pdf
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Old 02-10-2013, 08:16 PM   #35
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According to theTrojan battery users guide, you can also use de-ionized and reverse osmosis filtered water.

http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/T...UsersGuide.pdf
Yep, but distilled water is less than a buck a gallon even at acme.
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:02 AM   #36
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Yep, but distilled water is less than a buck a gallon even at acme.
And a lot of folks have reverse osmosis systems in their homes, making the treated water even less expensive...
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