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Old 08-04-2014, 09:52 AM   #1
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Thumbs down Water leaking from underbelly? (design flaw!)

Not sure of what makes or models are affected, but....

We have a 2014 Columbus 365RL and a few days after getting setup at the Ft Bliss MWR (RV park) in El Paso, I noticed the forward underbelly was hanging (bulging) down. The next day, I see water dripping at a pretty good rate from underneath and it smells like gray water.... hmmmm....

I start unscrewing the coroplast underbelly and about 20+ gallons of gray water pours out!!! After removing the underbelly and the destroyed insulation (it will be replaced when the leak gets fixed) and washing and drying the silver bubble insulation and black coroplast, I discover what the problem is...

I found a MAJOR design / manufacturing flaw. I would HIGHLY suggest you check yours too.

Apparently the black and gray tanks just lay in the frame on support beams that run fore and aft. OK.

BUT - THE TANKS ARE NOT SECURED IN PLACE AND THERE IS NO BRACE TO PREVENT THE TANKS FROM SLIDING FORWARD UNDER HARD BRAKING!

*IF* this happens, as it did to us, the take can pull loose from the dump line, or damage the dump line / valve and result in a leak.


Note the lack of a brace to prevent the tank from sliding forward (this view is from the door side, with the front being to the right):


Ours did, which pulled the dump line out of the tank far enough to result in a leak at the joint (this view is from the door side, with the back being to the left):


So... I am about to contact the Columbus and advise them about this and then contact the warranty office and see how they want to address this, as we are 600 miles from home and unable to return for a little over two weeks and have kids (2 granddaughters) and pets (4 dogs) with us.

FWIW, I loosened the clamp, slid the tank back into place and tightened the clamp back up, but it still has a small leak at the joint. I'll let Columbus fix it now.


Again, I would suggest you drop your underbelly and ensure that your tanks are SECURED!
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Old 08-04-2014, 10:47 AM   #2
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Sure wish we could be a Goshen right now to show this to the Columbus folks. I imagine they would be thinking that very little time and money spent building this correctly would have saved a lot more in warranty claims...
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Old 08-04-2014, 11:03 AM   #3
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We had the same with our 282RK Hemishpere, except it was the black tank!
Our dealer said they never encountered that before. They reset the tank, replaced the underbelly panel, spray disinfected the entire underbelly where the tanks are, and added 2 stainless steel straps to prevent it from happening again.

They also contactd FR regarding the incident to alert them of a larger potential problem.

Hope your dealer & FR can get you fixed up.
HOWEVER--as a customer Forest River needs to know your pain, not just the dealer. Everyone of us when we have an issue with a unit should also contact FR's quality assurance to register a customer complaint, not just have it handled as a warranty issue.
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Old 08-04-2014, 11:33 AM   #4
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Everyone of us when we have an issue with a unit should also contact FR's quality assurance to register a customer complaint, not just have it handled as a warranty issue.

Is there such a department to contact? If there is, every owner of a FR product should be made aware of it, and given information on how and where to contact said department.

We had a small leak coming from the forward vent in the "political sign plastic" belly liner of our 5er. Had that on the list we presented when we carried it in for warranty work in June. Thankfully for us, it was a small leak under the shower.

We only spotted the drip during one trip....very occasional drip from that vent. Sneak figured since we'd towed through rain it was road splash that got up into the underliner via that vent. Decided to get it checked, just in case. Fixed up now.
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Old 08-04-2014, 11:35 AM   #5
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Just called the factory service and spoke with "Sonja". She said it should be covered under warranty and would have "Cell Lopez" call me back shortly. Here we go...
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Old 08-04-2014, 12:24 PM   #6
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Forgot to add to the first post...

This is a picture of the gray tank fitting after I loosened the clamp, pushed the tank back into place and tightened the clamp. It still leaks, but MUCH less than before.... Also, still waiting on Columbus to call me back...

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Old 08-04-2014, 02:17 PM   #7
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What are the last 6 digits of your VIN or what is the production date of your rig?


Sent from my iPhone using Forest River Forums
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Old 08-04-2014, 03:03 PM   #8
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Amxpress, the last 7 are #6003030 and the production date is 7-12-2013.

And I just spoke to Cel Lopez and he said:
  • OPTION #1 - Take it to your selling dealer, they will fix it, you pick it up (no out of pocket expense) and the dealer will file a claim.
  • OPTION #2 - Take it to an authorized Forest River dealer and (dealer's discretion) same as option #1, otherwise, pay for the repair (estimated about $500 - $600 out of my pocket), then file a claim with the selling dealer, the dealer will then file a claim with Columbus, Columbus will review and pay the claim, the dealer will reimburse me. (estimated turn around, 4-6 weeks)
  • OPTION #3 - Contact a local RV Service "guy"and have them come and fix it (onsite) and pay for the repair (estimated about $500 - $600 out of my pocket), then file a claim with the selling dealer, the dealer will then file a claim with Columbus, Columbus will review and pay the claim, the dealer will reimburse me. (estimated turn around, 4-6 weeks)
  • OPTION #4 - (Cel Lopez did not say anything about or suggest this option, this is my own decision) I'll just fix than dang thing, know it is done right, and take my chances on filing a claim. (estimated cost, about $50 - $100)

He also said "too bad you're not at the Rally (Goshen), because they would just fix it onsite and be done.

NOTES:
  • Factory 1 year warranty runs out on 9-21-2014. No, the selling dealer did not tell us about the Factory 1 year extended warranty for $150. (personally, I call that deception by exclusion)
  • We purchased a 7 year extended warranty and it would cover this too, but we still pay a $100 deduct and the repair and get reimbursed. (3rd time we have every purchased an extended warranty, and both other's more than paid for themselves)

We are very happy with this RV. BUT, we will never buy from that dealer again (bought our other 2 RV's there). I have no tolerance for knowingly deceptive trade practices. In any case, if we had purchased the $150 extended Factory warranty, it would not have changed a thing.

I also know that the 4-6 weeks for turn around on the reimbursement is BUNK. My selling dealer will drag their feet like there is no tomorrow. We figure it may take 2 - 4 MONTHS to get them to reimburse us.

Now I would take it to them when we get back to Fort Worth, in about 2 1/2 weeks. BUT... how long would it take them to repair it? Would they repair it CORRECTLY? And the BIGGIE... We have to leave again on a 3,600 mile trip on 9-16-14 (5 days before factory warranty runs out). So they could only have it for a couple weeks, because we would need to pack and get ready.

So... Looks like when I get off work, I'll crawl up under the RV and start repairing it.
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Old 08-04-2014, 03:56 PM   #9
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Just spoke to the selling dealer (Fun Town RV in Cleburne, TX) and they said they are currently backlogged about 2 months. Yeah... that was helpful. So Option #1 is off the table. We won't get home until 8-20-14, then we have to leave on 9-16-14 again for two months. Probably not enough time to have the dealer fix it, because it takes me about a week to go over it from one end to the other (trip prep).

NOTE - This is NOT the dealer's fault, just an unfortunate circumstance. I just figured someone might be interested in how it was going.
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Old 08-04-2014, 04:11 PM   #10
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Dutch,

FR is willing to cover your problem under warranty, as they should be.

They have NO control over your dealer's schedule. FTR they can't even force your selling dealer to do warranty work on your RV.

FR gave you a second option; take it to another dealer. Have you pursued that route?

There is also option three; have you pursued that route?

There is no way FR (or any other RV manufacturer for that matter) can accommodate our travel schedules.

Since it's the grey tank and per your statement it's a small leak, were it me and Sneak, we'd tape the hades out of that connection and camp on until it can be scheduled for permanent repair. OR find a piece of rubber hose that would fit over the connection area and hose clamp both ends. But, that's just me, a totally NON mechanic brained person.
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Old 08-04-2014, 05:01 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weezer View Post
Everyone of us when we have an issue with a unit should also contact FR's quality assurance to register a customer complaint, not just have it handled as a warranty issue.

Is there such a department to contact? If there is, every owner of a FR product should be made aware of it, and given information on how and where to contact said department.

We had a small leak coming from the forward vent in the "political sign plastic" belly liner of our 5er. Had that on the list we presented when we carried it in for warranty work in June. Thankfully for us, it was a small leak under the shower.

We only spotted the drip during one trip....very occasional drip from that vent. Sneak figured since we'd towed through rain it was road splash that got up into the underliner via that vent. Decided to get it checked, just in case. Fixed up now.
If you go to Forest River's main web site you won't find any contact #s. BUT if you google search Forest River Industries Elkhart, IN you get a Google map with -- guess what a phone #:

574-296-7700
I also yellow page and there are a number of contact numbers, I don't know which ones go to which divisions, but here's the link:
Forest River Rv in Elkhart, Indiana with Reviews & Ratings - YP.com


In my regular day job, I am the North America Quality Assurance Director for a major chemical company and a six sigma black belt (as well as a Salem Hemishpere owner). There is no excuse for this quality. And there is no excuse for the customer not to have a voice to the manufacturer. Some companies will only respond when they feel the "pain" i.e. extensive and overwhelming customer complaints. Warranty claims do not get the same degree of attention as that is a post delivery process which is already costed into your unit.

Forums like this are great for us, but I doubt whether the problems listed here (and other manufactured brand forums) are read by the manufacturer's representatives. The dealers are stuck in the middle, their livlihood is dependant on making our lives happier when we have a problem, they can fix things, but they are powerless to prevent things. Their primary job is to sell units.

So the best way is to find the avenue to the corporate people who can make things change and continue having the expectation that you will receive your unit 100% right, 100% of the time. I would not be as concerned if 100% of the delivered units were "stinkers" as the company would not be in business very long. My concern is that sometimes they do it right and well, and a lot of the times not. There doesn't seem to be good process control over their manufacturing processes. Eventually it will catch up with them but for now, it's my and your hard earned $$$ that at risk.
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Old 08-04-2014, 05:19 PM   #12
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Weezer, I definitely agree with you assessment. So far, I have call two RV repair facilities in El Paso (where we are now) and both said they would have someone call me back. Only the Camping World service advisor called me back. He said that given my travel schedule, if parts had to be ordered it would be 7 -10 days before they arrived and I would probably need to leave before the repair could be done. I agree and because of this, I will just fix it myself.

I also called my selling dealer and they said they would have someone call me back. That's been an hour and a half.

I was simply interested in the "warranty service process". I'm happy with the manufacturer, Columbus. I love the product and in no way regret the purchase. But I don't feel that a 2 month backlog (selling dealer) to fix something like this, is very good.

I am concerned (and I think others should be too) that this unit left the factory with the black and gray tanks just laying in the frame, able to slide (freely) forward nearly 2 feet, under moderate to heavy braking! Hope no one else's is like this. Simply dropping the belly and having a look could save you a LOT of grief. Just saying.
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Old 08-04-2014, 05:24 PM   #13
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I'm going to do the repair, and send a write up on the symptom, cause, damage, repair and receipts, with photos ("just the facts Ma'am", LOL) to Cel Lopez and Sonja Smith at Columbus and see if I can get reimbursed. (I'm not counting on this) One thing is certain, it will be done right and cost a LOT less than the dealer filing a claim.

Happy RV'ing y'all, stay safe a Goshen!
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Old 08-04-2014, 06:43 PM   #14
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In the assembly videos I saw, the tanks appeared to have no flange to secure them with vertical screws to the frame. It looked more like a ledge. Generally, I saw plywood floor placed over top and that is screwed down, relying on friction between the wood floor and the tank to hold it in position. The installation also depended on the drains into/out of the tank to hold it.
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Old 08-05-2014, 08:59 AM   #15
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Narboza, Would you mind either posting a link to that video or PM me with it? Thanks!

Regarding your comments, my physical observation is that there is just over 1" of clearance between the top of the gray and black tanks and the bottom of the flooring. That is, I can lift the tank up and shake them around or (as is the issue) slide them forward. The only thing preventing that is a single 3.75" hose clamp on a slip joint for the dump lines (outlet) and the drain (inlet) and vent line (inlet) on top, which push down through a rubber grommet. From and engineering standpoint, I would suggest that this is insufficient for proper tank retention. A bolted on cross brace at the front of each tank should have been (designed and) installed, during manufacturing.

In any case, I confirmed how the warranty repair go. And really I should have no complaint and there is no surprise. Most consumers would:
  • Experience and or observe the symptom of underbelly sag / leak.
  • Call and schedule taking it to the dealer for repair.
  • The dealer would confirm and diagnose the cause of the leak (with pictures).
  • The dealer would contact the factory warranty department and get authorization to repair and if needed order any parts.
  • The dealer would repair the unit and file a claim. (NOTE - depending on circumstances, the customer MIGHT have to pay for the repair, up front then file for reimbursement, if covered under warranty).
  • The customer could pick up the RV and resume using it.

The length of time the customer would be without the RV, could be anywhere from a day (if the dealer had time to repair it right away and did not need to order parts) to 2 or more months (as would be my case, since my dealer said they are at least 2 months behind).

In the case of this particular manufacturing oversight / design flaw, I found this to be unacceptable as we are set up in camp with children and pets and I'm working (remotely) 8 - 10 hours a day.

Instead, I ended up doing what I figured I would. Repairing it myself. The cost was about $50 for parts (bracing, sealer, clamp, fender washers and insulation) and it took about 3 hours (overall). I didn't need to break camp and haul everyone to a dealer, interrupting our trip or my work and I am confident that it is repaired correctly and the repair will not fail.

Separated the tank from the drain and cleaned the fitting joint:


NOTE - Imagine what fun it would be if you didn't have the retaining brace, had waste water in your tanks (especially the black one!), had to hit the brakes and the tank slid forward, separating. EEEK!!! I was able to easily push the tank forward this far, by hand. The lines going in the top started to provided limited resistance. If the tank were to slide forward with sufficient force, it *could* crack, break or pull the top lines out. Then you would have to remove the tank and have additional repairs. Not good.

Applied plumbers putty and be SURE it is for plastic! (it got dark by the time I took this):


Slide the tank fitting back onto the drain. Note that I chose to add a second clamp. (it got dark by the time I took this):


Tighten clamps and clean joint of excess putty. Clamps should NOT overlap. (it got dark by the time I took this):


I will post picture of the bracing to prevent the tanks from sliding forward, once I have them installed. Might be a day or two, as I have a "day job".

As a bonus (?) I had the opportunity to get up close and personal with the workings of the waste water draining system, cabling, wiring, plumbing, sealing, frame, braces, belly heating of the underside of the RV. This is valuable as it also allowed me to identify several areas that could easily, and inexpensively be improved upon both in function and reliability.

I found:
  • Electrical wiring hanging randomly, all over the place, some of which could get chaffed.
  • Wiring connections that were either loose or had the potential to pull loose.
  • Plumbing lines that could get chaffed and fitting that were not fully tightened (but not leaking)..
  • Waste water tanks that were not secured and pulled loose, resulting in a leak and damaged insulation.

So when we get home, I will drop the underbelly in the middle and rear and see what I can correct back there.

Happy Camping!
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Old 08-05-2014, 05:27 PM   #16
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Dutch,
We have a Rockwood 2703ws that I have removed the entire underbelly and reinstalled in four foot sections. Our fresh water tank was not secured from sliding sideways and bowed badly in the middle. I installed wood braces to the end of the tank to the frame and added a brace between the tank and braces holding it in to raise the middle. I actually get more water from the tank now.
Found the same wiring mess and potential problems from running down the road and wearing through things that shouldn't be worn through.
Did the same thing with the previous trailer and that's why I did this one.
Good luck
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Old 08-05-2014, 07:36 PM   #17
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I cannot locate the specific video, but search for "RV holding tanks" and you will find lots of dealers and pictures. Your tanks must have end ledges in order to slide. Mine have side ledges and are fitted to ride on the frame crossmembers.
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Old 08-05-2014, 07:45 PM   #18
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Thanks for checking. Our tanks have side ledges. The are mounted side by side, longitudinally, on rails bolted to a fore and aft cross member (parallel to the frame rails), with a center ledge support bar, welded to a fore and aft cross member. Hence the problem. They can slide forward under hard braking.
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Old 08-05-2014, 09:00 PM   #19
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Quote:
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Weezer, I definitely agree with you assessment. So far, I have call two RV repair facilities in El Paso (where we are now) and both said they would have someone call me back. Only the Camping World service advisor called me back. He said that given my travel schedule, if parts had to be ordered it would be 7 -10 days before they arrived and I would probably need to leave before the repair could be done. I agree and because of this, I will just fix it myself.

I also called my selling dealer and they said they would have someone call me back. That's been an hour and a half.

I was simply interested in the "warranty service process". I'm happy with the manufacturer, Columbus. I love the product and in no way regret the purchase. But I don't feel that a 2 month backlog (selling dealer) to fix something like this, is very good.

I am concerned (and I think others should be too) that this unit left the factory with the black and gray tanks just laying in the frame, able to slide (freely) forward nearly 2 feet, under moderate to heavy braking! Hope no one else's is like this. Simply dropping the belly and having a look could save you a LOT of grief. Just saying.
Dutch: I agree that two months bag log on repairs is ridiculous. BUT, my dealer, located very near yours, currently has a seven week wait period. It, in my opinion, is called selling high volumes of RV's and maintaining a small repair staff. Warranty repair centers are considered a profit loss by the dealers. I also had a leak from the shower plumbing. Water dripping from underbelly. It was repaired under warranty.

If you conduct the repair, visit the plumbing department of Home Depot and Lowes. They have a rubber coupler which splits on one side and you fasten with screws. Cannot think of the term for it, but readily available in various diameters. A battery operated drill with the proper style bit, in an extended length, would simplify the installation. Good luck on the issue.
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