Apex Off Grid nonsense

[_JoeD_]

I bought a 2023 Apex Nano 194bhs (in general, I love this trailer). It has large "OFF GRID" wording on the outside. What qualifies a trailer to be called "off grid"?
Because this trailer is NOT. A trailer that can stay without shore power for less than one day is not off grid.
Here is my reasoning: Coachmen switched to a 12V only fridge between the 2023 and 2024 models (I understand they are way cheaper than the 110V/propane models). With the fridge using ~180W (according to manual + I measured the same) it uses about 15 amps (at 12V). The battery that came with it was a lead-acid 80Ah battery. These batteries can produce about half the stated capacity before the voltage drops under usable levels. So, let's say I can get 50Ah out of the battery, with the 15A the fridge uses I can run the fridge for about 3-4 hours, then the battery is dead and NOTHING works anymore. That's less than 1 day of use, how can this be called off-grid? Shouldn't that be called false advertising?
Unless you park 12 hours in direct sunlight (who would want to do that?) the solar doesn't even make a dent in the calculation. Parked in semi-sun the 200W panel creates no more than 1A.
I had to upgrade to a 300Ah Lithium battery, so I can stay off-grid for a few days. Coachmen is saving a few thousand dollars on the fridge, the 300Ah battery was only $450 off Amazon. This should be the default!

 

[Bob K4TAX]

Marketing, marketing, marketing. You are correct, a FLA bttery with a 80 aH rating is good for a few lights.....for a while and that's all.

I suppose one could conlcude, using the wording OFF GRID with the following in small print, "if equipped".

As to cost vs. price, if those items were added at the factory, the pass through price would be up by $2500. At the same time, saving a few $$ on the refrigerator X ~500 units sold is a big savings to the factory. The bean counters like that.

Bob

 

[Larry-NC]

You missed one point...

I bought a 2023 Apex Nano 194bhs (in general, I love this trailer). It has large "OFF GRID" wording on the outside. What qualifies a trailer to be called "off grid"?
Because this trailer is NOT. A trailer that can stay without shore power for less than one day is not off grid.
Here is my reasoning: Coachmen switched to a 12V only fridge between the 2023 and 2024 models (I understand they are way cheaper than the 110V/propane models). With the fridge using ~180W (according to manual + I measured the same) it uses about 15 amps (at 12V). The battery that came with it was a lead-acid 80Ah battery. These batteries can produce about half the stated capacity before the voltage drops under usable levels. So, let's say I can get 50Ah out of the battery, with the 15A the fridge uses I can run the fridge for about 3-4 hours, then the battery is dead and NOTHING works anymore. That's less than 1 day of use, how can this be called off-grid? Shouldn't that be called false advertising?
Unless you park 12 hours in direct sunlight (who would want to do that?) the solar doesn't even make a dent in the calculation. Parked in semi-sun the 200W panel creates no more than 1A.
I had to upgrade to a 300Ah Lithium battery, so I can stay off-grid for a few days. Coachmen is saving a few thousand dollars on the fridge, the 300Ah battery was only $450 off Amazon. This should be the default!

Joe, you missed one point. The refrigerator duty cycle is not 100%. Depending on ambient temperature and the number of times the refrigerator door is opened, it could be 20% or 50% or something else less than 100%.

Nevertheless, it is clear that, as delivered, it was not suitable for boondocking.

Now, answer this question: Look at your paperwork and see whether the original Flooded Lead Acid battery was installed at the dealer and billed by the dealer as an add-on item. If it was, the deception was by the dealer. If he knew you were going to boondock, he should have sold you a LiFePO4 battery.

 

[bikendan]

The so-called "Off Grid" label, is pure RV Industry marketing, just like the "Cold Weather package".

Very few FR RVs are truly Off Grid unless the customer makes a lot of changes.
Also most are not truly Off Road capable.

 

[jimmoore13]

You are absolutely correct in your analysis of 12 volt power consumption by the dreaded 12 volt compressor fridge. Don't get me wrong, I hear they are nice, but I boondock exclusively, and there isn't a chance in hell I'd own one.

A moment of devil's advocacy. The net power consumption from the 15 amps draw depends on duty cycle. On a 60 degree day, your fridge might run only 20% of the time, yielding a net draw of 3 average AH/hour.
You very generously rated your group 24 lead acid marine battery at 50 AH usable. I know you already know that it's more like 35 AH usable.
But still...in the imaginary world of RV marketing, you could theoretically run the fridge for a whopping 11 or so hours before needing to recharge...ASSUMING NO OTHER POWER USE.

Off Grid does imply more than just DC power. The implication is ground clearance, perhaps larger holding tanks, and other "tough guy" connotations.

Gotta getchu some solar and a good generator to go with that battery, because even with my very optimistic math on fridge power consumption, your 300 AH battery, with USABLE capacity of 240 AH (80%), will run that fridge for just over 3 days. Of course in reality, when it gets hot...like when you go camping in the summer...that fridge's duty cycle will go WAY up, and that means maybe 10 amp hours per hour...which gets you back down to just a day or two.

And let's not forget all those other loads: pump, lights, awning, tongue jack, slide???, tiny loads to manage the hot water heater and parasitic loads, and the all-important furnace at about 10 AH/hour adjusted for duty cycle overnight.

In sunny Colorado, I can count on a good solid 5 amps charge per 100 watts of solar for about 4 hours a day...20 AH for prime time and maybe another 15 AH for the whole rest of the day total. Let's round that to 30 AH/panel to allow for passing clouds, partial shading from nearby trees, dust on the panels, and so on. I have 4 panels, so I can, on a good day, get up to 120 AH of charge out of a 400 watts solar array. If you live in Syracuse, NY, divide by 3 or 4 for persistent cloud cover, haze, higher latitude, and so on.

But Forest River pretends 200 watts of solar can not only keep up but also recharge a depleted battery while running that fridge during the heat of the day.

Live and learn. You need more solar and you absolutely need a generator. But I envy your 300 AH-rated LiFePo4. I get by with 2 golf cart batteries with a rated USABLE capacity of 115 AH. But then again, I have a propane fridge.

You don't need this info, but just to make the point. These are round numbers.
Propane = 91,500 BTU per gallon.
Typical 20# tank holds about 4.5 gallons = 411,750 BTU
Two tanks on the tongue? 823,500 BTU
1 BTU = 0.000293071 kilowatt hours
A kilowatt is 1000 watts.
Two tanks of propane contain 241,286 watts (241 kilowatts)
At 12 volts, 241+ kilowatts = WAIT FOR IT = 20,000+ AMP HOURS
Two tanks of propane contain the same usable energy as nearly 84 of those wonderful LiFePo4 batteries of yours. 84.
It would take 575 of the cheapo marine batteries to store the same energy as two 20# tanks of propane.

Use this calculator to figure your loads and battery capacity: https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/electric/watt-volt-amp-calculator.html
It's especially helpful if you get the idea to add an inverter and your loads are in watts. Let's say a 900 watt coffee maker running on the inverter. First rule is that the ultimate source of power is the battery, therefore 12 volts is the voltage. Plug in 900 watts into the power and 12 volts into the voltage, and you get 75 amps. Every second you run that coffee maker, you are pulling 75 amps from the battery...and let's not forget to add 5 to 10% for conversion inefficiencies. Let's round it to 80 amps. 10 minutes to make coffee...if you're quick...= 13.3 AH out of the battery for a pot of coffee. 6% of your battery right there. If you already know the amps draw of your 120 volt appliance, just multiply that times 10 to get amps at 12 volts.
Also, assume it's kind of cold and you run your furnace. 10 amps x 8 hours x 50% duty cycle = 40 AH.

THAT'S why RV refrigerators were originally designed to run on 120 volt shore power (essentially infinite power) or propane. Making cold uses lots of energy, and battery technology, as good as it is, isn't really there yet.

You're gonna need

 

[Rhumblefish]

see whether the original Flooded Lead Acid battery was installed at the dealer and billed by the dealer as an add-on item.

I'd suggest that it does come down to who installs the battery. SEEMS like the dealership does it (not the factory), and that it's common for a dealership to push the easy ("no brainer"( button of installing a relatively cheap (potentially faux) 'deep cycle' battery that they buy in bulk and install in singles or doubles. This might be hidden in the cost of the RV, and not called out in paperwork, or tucked away in "prep."

It's also a missed opportunity for the dealership to ask about how the camper is going to camp (and upsell to a decent LiFePo battery/bank and potentially some lucrative aftermarket solar install).

And, finally, it's a lot of Caveat Emptor - let the buyer beware. New purchasers in particular don't know what they don't know (and dealerships aren't aways much better - remember the kerfuffle we had when an entire dealership apparently couldn't find the master on/off switch)? The learning curve is pretty high around this, and often a salesman is seeing $$$, and doesn't want to jynx that with a discussion about "how they need to buy MORE to be offgrid."

The so-called "Off Grid" label, is pure RV Industry marketing, just like the "Cold Weather package".

Yep. Still, there's a lotta stuff like that. Can't go buy a car and instantly take it racing (minus a little autocrossing).

Frankly, I think this is an opportunity for a dealership - ask and engage with the potential customer, then help them select (and build/modify) something that meets their needs. It's a harder, more expensive, and likely less successful sale, but it yields a better outcome for the customer.

As to cost vs. price, if those items were added at the factory, the pass through price would be up by $2500.

Dunno, Bob. A 300ah battery AT RETAIL can be had for $400 (not to mention wholesale/bulk discount for a manufacturer or a family of dealerships). That's not a $2,500 item, maybe double (at best). Granted, I suspect this is still dealer prep cost (that a trailer likely isn't getting a battery until it's sold. Till then it sits on the lot and gets a salesman's jump box or it's set up as a demonstrator... at which point it's probably inside in a showroom and plugged in.)

At the same time, saving a few $$ on the refrigerator X ~500 units sold is a big savings to the factory. The bean counters like that.

True - Beancounters want anything they can get to ensure the sale and make margin to cover as much profit as the can. Of course, in addition to raw sales, bean counters also like ancillary sales, traffic, repeat sales, and a busy service center. They likewise don't care if anyone has to put an additional $1,000 worth of propane lines and 2-way fridge (plus markup) in a $40,000 camper, so long as the camper as specced does well in the sales space (the sale happens, the customer is happy, the customer drives other people to their business, the customer returns when it's time).

OP, I feel you, but you've got A/C, a fridge, a microwave, electric hot water heater in that trailer in addition to the 12v fridge (not to mention the furnace fan, and any other electrical monsters). You have to KNOW that none of that stuff is running off a little FLA car battery for ANY length of time. And the same way you already know that... a buyer has to learn about solar (if they want to use it effectively to augment their power).

Imagine that the 200w solar panel was 100% efficient (HA!), and you parked in direct sun in cool weather but bright sunlight that is directly above you and not angled low. At 50% powermaking in 24hours, you'd be trying to run an entire trailer (not just the fridge) off the same power as a 100w light bulb. Unfortunately, that's

Yes, off-grid is a marketing term, but so is High Adventure, or Apex. Hell, even "Nano" is marketing talk. Your trailer might be lightweighted, but at 4,000lbs and 22feet long, it sure isn't "nano."

If you wanted off-grid/boondocking ability, it was likely on you to make sure what you were buying would do that (and certainly the dealership/seller should have been receptive and informative if you were engaging with them).

I'm not trying to make you feel bad - you have fallen victim to the Bermuda Triangle of Shady Marketing, an Underprepared Buyer and (potentially) an Unethical Seller, and that can be pretty frustrating. But so is getting into the RV game without being prepared to do a lot of learning, really quickly (sort of like understanding how to tow, and with what, and how published factory weights are a whisper away from being fiction).

Caveat Emptor... held for the Romans, and holds true today. Sorry you're frustrated. We're here to help.

Just my .02. I could be - and often am - wrong.

 

[Aussieguy]

I have never seen anywhere near 15 amp draw on my fridge...
In fact I turned on every light, bathroom fan, the furnace and measured current while pulling the awing UP

only time I ever saw over 10 amps was when awning was all the way in... and motor started to load up

It is very hard to draw a lot of of 12v from standard stuff
add a inverter and 12v power usage will go up pretty good


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tested my COLD 12v fridge on full battery lifepo4 200ah
normal parasitic loads ...
stopped testing after 56 hours ... battery said still had 4 hours remaining

average Fridge usage was 5 amps @12v and running only 50% of the time
my manual says 11 amps.... but guessing that means if you start with a hot fridge

since adding solar and lifepo4 battery the fridge is a NON issue
it behaved beautifully during Milton ... we emptied our house freezer/fridge into the 12v trailer
took all the expensive food stuffs , some month old moldy leftovers got to stay home and guard the house


Long live the 12v
PS ... It is always ON .... has been working full time since we bought it !
it's a second fridge for us now .