First EV trip

[dalford]

Can you show me some data demonstrating that EV sales are falling? This link would suggest otherwise: https://caredge.com/guides/electric-vehicle-market-share-and-sales. It shows Q3 2023 EV sales at an all time high. Q4 numbers aren’t available yet.

I am pausing on buying a third EV until manufacturers build an EV type that I want. They build it, I’m totally ready to buy it. Part of the problem in my case is that EV manufacturers are focusing on market segments that don’t interest me, however I suspect some products I’ll like are on the horizon.

I surely don’t expect everyone to jump on the EV bandwagon. In fact, at this point I expect few to do so. What baffles me is how those that are uninterested are so drawn to EV discussions to point out their dislikes. I’m not into ocean sailing, guns, or spelunking, but I don’t jump on those type discussions or forums to tell them why I don’t like it or don’t do it. I don’t go on pickup truck forums to tell them why pickups are bad or of no use to me. Yet as soon as electric vehicle topics come up anywhere but on a dedicated EV forum, usually here come the negative comments by people who don’t even have any interest in them.

I told my wife that the consumer would decide when all the large auto companies jumped head first into the EV market… this is an article in the WSJ about the cooling of the EV market and the problems dealers are having selling them and the billions the big three have lost..

https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/...0ve9rf7h12l&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

 

[NoviBill]

I told my wife that the consumer would decide when all the large auto companies jumped head first into the EV market… this is an article in the WSJ about the cooling of the EV market and the problems dealers are having selling them and the billions the big three have lost..

https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/...0ve9rf7h12l&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

The WSJ chart shows a 42% increase in EV sales for November year over year, not bad. EV Rebates change January 1st, 2024 so that is probably dampening 4th quarter sales.

For the most part EVs are not ready for RV use yet, we are still on Generation 1-2 of EVs. Battery technology will easily double in density over the next 10 years (2035) for similar costs. At that point EVs will have a huge cost advantage over IC vehicles.

 

[ppine]

As a retired environmental consultant, the comments about "humans being bad for the environment" are a sweeping generalization. Some humans are worse than others.
The US has the cleanest environment in the history of human civilization.

 

[sherman12]

dalford, I read that same article in the WSJ (my brother subscribes), good post.

ppine, your post reminds me of a Korean shoemaker I came upon back in the mid 1980's. One day when I went to pick up a pair of resoled shoes the shoemaker was in a foul mood. In a roundabout way, I asked him why he was having such a bad day. His reply is still amazing today; The U.S. isn't losing manufacturing jobs or industries overseas, "What they are doing is Exporting Their pollution". His point was concerning the many industries taking shape in So. Korea bringing with it industrial pollution.

 

[wmtire]

Can you show me some data demonstrating that EV sales are falling? This link would suggest otherwise: https://caredge.com/guides/electric-vehicle-market-share-and-sales. It shows Q3 2023 EV sales at an all time high. Q4 numbers aren’t available yet.

I am pausing on buying a third EV until manufacturers build an EV type that I want. They build it, I’m totally ready to buy it. Part of the problem in my case is that EV manufacturers are focusing on market segments that don’t interest me, however I suspect some products I’ll like are on the horizon.

I surely don’t expect everyone to jump on the EV bandwagon. In fact, at this point I expect few to do so. What baffles me is how those that are uninterested are so drawn to EV discussions to point out their dislikes. I’m not into ocean sailing, guns, or spelunking, but I don’t jump on those type discussions or forums to tell them why I don’t like it or don’t do it. I don’t go on pickup truck forums to tell them why pickups are bad or of no use to me. Yet as soon as electric vehicle topics come up anywhere but on a dedicated EV forum, usually here come the negative comments by people who don’t even have any interest in them.

Caredge is a youtube channel I watch as well as their associated channels. You may want to watch some of them as Zack and Ray explain how those sales numbers are not actual reflections of vehicles sold to consumers. They explain that the auto manufacturers will count as a sale... vehicles delivered to the dealers, vehicles sitting on transports, etc. They explain that a lot of the sales are actually to dealers filling up their lots....not to end user consumers..... so as production rises, so do sales, but not necessarily to consumers. Third quarter last year, you couldn't hardly find anything. Third quarter this year, and many dealer lots are full, which is part of those increasing sales numbers you are reading.

They also have some great videos on how the dealers are full and having to turn away vehicles unless the rebates get higher. They also explain how the dealers are getting hammered by "lot rot" which is the associated costs of keeping batteries charged, tires aired up, interest on floor plans, etc. on the vehicles sitting on their lots, but not getting sold to end user consumers.

I do like their channels and banters.

 

[D W]

Here you go:
https://youtu.be/-e55Vued028?feature=shared

Watched the video. As far as the Ford lightning goes, it's "unsatisfactory" for my application, and probably the same for the rest of the folks in my neck of the woods. By the way, neither of those TH's were loaded. These EV's might be all well and dandy for "aroun' -towners", but they certainly have their limitations. The poor guy in the Ford was starting to sweat after the 1st 100 miles. No, I'll pass on EV's.

Incidentally, both rigs had a significant amount of sway with their "fancy" hitches installed.

 

[Larry-NC]

Lots of gray sky days

dalford, I read that same article in the WSJ (my brother subscribes), good post.

ppine, your post reminds me of a Korean shoemaker I came upon back in the mid 1980's. One day when I went to pick up a pair of resoled shoes the shoemaker was in a foul mood. In a roundabout way, I asked him why he was having such a bad day. His reply is still amazing today; The U.S. isn't losing manufacturing jobs or industries overseas, "What they are doing is Exporting Their pollution". His point was concerning the many industries taking shape in So. Korea bringing with it industrial pollution.

There were lots of gray sky days when I regularly travelled to South Korea in 2003-4. By that time, the natives insisted that the pollution blew there from China and was not locally produced. My few visits to mainland China convinced me that they were right.

 

[ppine]

It is entirely possible and even likely that EV vehicles will be a short term solution until we get to the next technology for instance, hydrogen.

 

[Qwkynuf]

It is entirely possible and even likely that EV vehicles will be a short term solution until we get to the next technology for instance, hydrogen.

I have been dying to love hydrogen for a long time - Since Toyota leased out a small fleet of Camrys in California. Maybe 10 years ago?

I have wondered why the technology hasn't moved forward and become more readily available.

It turns out that one of the big factors is that while hydrogen is plentiful in our environment, very little of it is "free hydrogen". Most of it is trapped in other other compounds (water, for example), and a *lot* of energy is required to free it.

Since we (obviously) don't want to burn hydrocarbons to create the electricity required, and the most obvious renewables (wind, solar) don't yet scale well enough to support the level of industrial production needed, well that pretty much leaves nuclear as the only currently viable option. And I think we all know how warmly Americans embrace nuclear energy....

There's a really good YouTube video by a German physicist named Sabine Hossenfelder that discusses some of the challenges (including transportation and storage).

https://youtu.be/Zklo4Z1SqkE?si=XDaHahT7G4nQVe0H

 

[D W]

It is entirely possible and even likely that EV vehicles will be a short term solution until we get to the next technology for instance, hydrogen.

The Hydrogen Internal Combustion Engine (HICE) has been around for decades. There is even a patent on modifications to a gas/diesel internal combustion engine to facilitate the use of hydrogen. Wankel, Mazda, BMW, Yamaha, Honda and a host of other companies have produced successfully HICE powered equipment. With hydrogen there are no carbon emissions, but combustion does produce NOX which may be a reason the environmentalists have frowned on it. But, lets put it this way, there is not enough electricity in the U.S. available to support even 100 million EV's nor do we have the transmission system.

 

[PenJoe]

Can you show me some data demonstrating that EV sales are falling? This link would suggest otherwise: https://caredge.com/guides/electric-vehicle-market-share-and-sales. It shows Q3 2023 EV sales at an all time high. Q4 numbers aren’t available yet.

I am pausing on buying a third EV until manufacturers build an EV type that I want. They build it, I’m totally ready to buy it. Part of the problem in my case is that EV manufacturers are focusing on market segments that don’t interest me, however I suspect some products I’ll like are on the horizon.

I surely don’t expect everyone to jump on the EV bandwagon. In fact, at this point I expect few to do so. What baffles me is how those that are uninterested are so drawn to EV discussions to point out their dislikes. I’m not into ocean sailing, guns, or spelunking, but I don’t jump on those type discussions or forums to tell them why I don’t like it or don’t do it. I don’t go on pickup truck forums to tell them why pickups are bad or of no use to me. Yet as soon as electric vehicle topics come up anywhere but on a dedicated EV forum, usually here come the negative comments by people who don’t even have any interest in them.

The more research people do on EVs, the less interest they get in owning one. It come down to a matter of dollars and sense:

https://www.westernjournal.com/ap-f..._campaign=dailyam&utm_content=western-journal

https://presidentialhill.com/ev-owners-faced-with-repair-bills-far-above-gas-cars/


https://www.caranddriver.com/featur...licks, NON AM 90D Opens, Both Subbed Last 30D

 

[BehindBars]

The more research people do on EVs, the less interest they get in owning one. It come down to a matter of dollars and sense:

https://www.westernjournal.com/ap-f..._campaign=dailyam&utm_content=western-journal

https://presidentialhill.com/ev-owners-faced-with-repair-bills-far-above-gas-cars/


https://www.caranddriver.com/featur...licks, NON AM 90D Opens, Both Subbed Last 30D

I don’t read such articles. It’s my belief that if a person hasn’t tried or purchased and experienced an EV for themselves, they may just be suckers for all the articles written and published for whatever agenda it might have. People shouldn’t let others decide for them. If a person has interest and wants to learn whether an EV is for them, they can try one out, or just buy one. I did. I hope I never have to go back to ICE.

 

[jimmarako]

Sailing, guns and spelunking are "hobbies". An automobile is the primary mode of transportation for about 300 million souls in this country. Certain factions are presently trying to dictate which type of vehicle you must drive, and using a political system to enforce it. The majority of the people are rejecting it, flat out. We are bombarded with notions that we must "conform" in order to save the planet. I've got news for those types, this is a carbon based planet and has been around long before man walked on it and it will be around long after man is gone. It is a self cleaning planet that has the ability to regulate everything on it. Species come and go. Man is but a mere blip when it comes to nature and he no control of the nature. After all, man did not kill all the dinosaurs.

I was following you until this last statement. You can't be that naïve. I mean clearly man is responsible for everything bad that has happened on this planet. After all, who gave them the cigarettes?

 

[PenJoe]

I don’t read such articles. It’s my belief that if a person hasn’t tried or purchased and experienced an EV for themselves, they may just be suckers for all the articles written and published for whatever agenda it might have. People shouldn’t let others decide for them. If a person has interest and wants to learn whether an EV is for them, they can try one out, or just buy one. I did. I hope I never have to go back to ICE.

To each his own. Personally, I research major purchases before buying and learn from other's experiences. Currently there are attributes and challenges with EVs. If you will recall, GM pushed diesels from 1978-1985. That was a disaster. Electric cars date back to the 1800s and are just starting to get a share of the market. Several moths ago, Popular Mechanics featured an article converting a Tesla to an ICE-similar to GM diesel owners of yesteryear converting them to gas. Until EVs break out of the niche market, I will stick with ICE.

 

[BehindBars]

To each his own. Personally, I research major purchases before buying and learn from other's experiences. Currently there are attributes and challenges with EVs. If you will recall, GM pushed diesels from 1978-1985. That was a disaster. Electric cars date back to the 1800s and are just starting to get a share of the market. Several moths ago, Popular Mechanics featured an article converting a Tesla to an ICE-similar to GM diesel owners of yesteryear converting them to gas. Until EVs break out of the niche market, I will stick with ICE.

Oh, I research, too. But for example, if I was researching RVs, I learn way more practical information from real world RV discussions here on this forum than I would clicking on any of those paid advertising articles I see positioned at the bottom of the forum page. And I learn from other owners I can personally converse with to learn the ins and outs. Articles published on the internet, youtube, or in magazines are definitely not reliable sources.

For EVs to break out of the niche market, people first have to be buying them. I guess someone can be first to buy them; someone else can be last. The snowball will get rolling, bigger and bigger, then eventually EVs may be mainstream. But it has to start with a few people shutting out the noise against change, and embracing evolution and revolution (in vehicles). Sure, there will be bumps in the road to success. For me, I’m tired of the 100+ year old technology of today’s mainstream ICE machines - it’s stink, noise, mess, vibration, and high maintenance.

 

[itat]

Given that electricity production here in Ontario, Canada is 73% from non-polluting sources, I’d have no problem buying a PHEV (not 100% electric) for our main daily driver as long as the cost of ownership is equal to or less than a comparible ICE vehicle. I’d be very interested in stats indicating the reliability and longevity of the current generation of batteries in PHEVs, and the true cost to replace one. For me, this is the only cost factor that makes me hesitate to buy a PHEV.

 

[BehindBars]

Given that electricity production here in Ontario, Canada is 73% from non-polluting sources, I’d have no problem buying a PHEV (not 100% electric) for our main daily driver as long as the cost of ownership is equal to or less than a comparible ICE vehicle. I’d be very interested in stats indicating the reliability and longevity of the current generation of batteries in PHEVs, and the true cost to replace one. For me, this is the only cost factor that makes me hesitate to buy a PHEV.

Check warranty coverage time and distance. Typically the battery warranty is much longer than other car component. 8 years is common, perhaps 10 years in some cases. The manufacturers seem to have a lot of confidence in the battery, or perhaps they are offering long warranties to attract buyers that are leery.

 

[PenJoe]

Given that electricity production here in Ontario, Canada is 73% from non-polluting sources, I’d have no problem buying a PHEV (not 100% electric) for our main daily driver as long as the cost of ownership is equal to or less than a comparible ICE vehicle. I’d be very interested in stats indicating the reliability and longevity of the current generation of batteries in PHEVs, and the true cost to replace one. For me, this is the only cost factor that makes me hesitate to buy a PHEV.

The problem with anything electrical or mechanical is that there is no given time for a failure. For instance, a vehicle water pump is supposed to last 60K-90K miles. On a recent 1,700 jaunt, we had a water pump failure at under 30K miles-a half to two thirds the normal life expectancy. It was disappointing, but we were able to get a replacement within a day.

When LED light became available, it was indicated that they should last a lifetime. We bought a light fixture with 5 LED bulbs. a year later, 4 of those bulbs failed within a two-day period. Button batteries are supposed to have a several year shelf life. Recently, I have proven that theory totally wrong.

As with the above examples, EV batteries have an advertised life and reality. They may go the advertised life plus or fail far short on the calendar. So now comes the warranty period vs availability. Water pumps, LED light bulbs are plug and play. EV batteries, on the other hand, can change from year-to-year. Does the manufacturer/dealer keep a supply of obsolete batteries available?
Not likely. Covered under warranty-yes, availability-good luck. And, if there is no warranty, replacement cost can be astronomical-again, if you can find one. What does that do to the used EV market. Anyone doing their homework wouldn't touch one. That's the reality

 

[BehindBars]

The problem with anything electrical or mechanical is that there is no given time for a failure. For instance, a vehicle water pump is supposed to last 60K-90K miles. On a recent 1,700 jaunt, we had a water pump failure at under 30K miles-a half to two thirds the normal life expectancy. It was disappointing, but we were able to get a replacement within a day.

When LED light became available, it was indicated that they should last a lifetime. We bought a light fixture with 5 LED bulbs. a year later, 4 of those bulbs failed pwithin a two-day period. Button batteries are supposed to have a several year shelf life. Recently, I have proven that theory totally wrong.

As with the above examples, EV batteries have an advertised life and reality. They may go the advertised life plus or fail far short on the calendar. So now comes the warranty period vs availability. Water pumps, LED light bulbs are plug and play. EV batteries, on the other hand, can change from year-to-year. Does the manufacturer/dealer keep a supply of obsolete batteries available?
Not likely. Covered under warranty-yes, availability-good luck. And, if there is no warranty, replacement cost can be astronomical-again, if you can find one. What does that do to the used EV market. Anyone doing their homework wouldn't touch one. That's the reality

All good questions. Have you made a decision without getting real answers? Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt (FUD) may be at play here.

The EV battery FUD topic was brought up on the Honda Ridgeline forum. A knowledgable and trustworthy member pointed out that a Tesla battery pack replacement didn’t cost much more than replacing a now obsolete and out of production 6-speed transmission in a 2017-19 Ridgeline, which are failing at relatively high rates. A friend of mine just told me he paid between $5,000 and $10,000 (wouldn’t say exactly) to have his Chevy Silverado’s transmission replaced. All vehicles come with the risk of expensive repairs. I pick up tidbits like this, good and bad, and try to consolidate them to aid in decision making and putting things in perspective. In the end, the concern over EV batteries is a non-issue for me.

 

[GolfingDave]

For me, I’m tired of the 100+ year old technology of today’s mainstream ICE machines - it’s stink, noise, mess, vibration, and high maintenance.

Except for the basics such as it takes combustion and the wheels rotate the technology is pretty recent. I don't think anyone would buy a new vehicle manufactured with 100 year old technology.