Isata 3 2024 FE Xantrex Freedom batteries in cold weather

[burtbick]

Well, another bit of strangeness.. On the Xantrex support pages there is a recommendation to lower the charging voltage by .2V to see if that helps resolve the COV fault.


On the battery spec sheet the charging voltage (Absorption) is specified to be 14.6V and Float is specified to be 14.0V.


But as configured, both with the original inverter and the new one Float was set at 14.4.. Brian says that is correct, but then I wonder about the fact that the spec says 14.0V..


Anyway, since the support page says to reduce the charge voltage by .2V I tried to do that in the Bluetooth app. I can change it to 14.2V but when I attempt to apply the app says it was unsuccessful.



So next I tried it from the remote panel. It is setting #23. With the remote panel it won't let me select #23 for editing. I can edit other entries.


So then I tried shutting down the inverter with shore power removed. Note that with the inverter off and shore power disconnected I still have 12V.


Then I started the inverter back up, and after it came up teh Absorption voltage was 14.8V!! and Float was still 14.4V.


I tried to change Float again and it still fails. Just for grins I also tried it from the FireFly panel and that also doesn't save the change.


I can change the Absorption value.


Note that the battery type is Custom and as I understand it if it is not set to Custom then those two settings are not even available. The docs say that you can't change them unless the battery type is Custom.


So has anyone else tried to change the Float value, and if so did you have the same issue? If not then did you have to do anything special to change the Float value?


I'm waiting for an answer back from Xantrex. But at the moment I don't see a way to change the value.


And it was annoying that the Absorption value defaulted to a value above the max charging voltage on the spec sheet.

 

[burtbick]

Oops.. Didn't catch that I was posting to the wrong thread. I'll continue back on the original thread. Other than to add that Xantrex'x suggestion did NOT resolve the COV eGen restart issue. It was fine before lunch but during lunch it power cycled and COV faults are back in the fault history.



Some updates on the issue I have been seeing with the new battery / eGen FW and COV faults.


One suggestion from Xantrex is to remove shore power, then turn off the inverter, and then shut off the batteries. Then press the inverter power button about 5 times to discharge any caps still holding some power. Wait for 10 minutes, bring the batteries back on line, then the inverter and finally restore shore power.


I actually waited 20 minutes for good measure.


When power was restored the inverter was again set for 10 Amps max charge current, and this time both Absorption and Float were at 14.4V, yesterday after cycling the inverter Absorption was changed to 14.8!!! Xantrex thinks that it was FireFly that caused the 10 Amp value, but not 100% sure yet.


Also Xantrex thinks that the issue I have with not being able to change the Float setting is that they may have locked that setting. They say that some settings on the inverter are locked and you need to use a special tool to unlock them. It seems strange that they didn't also lock the Absorption setting, so waiting for confirmation on that.


After bringing things back up and correcting the max charge current so far everything appears to be running fine.


On the fault history screen I believe my assumption about it retaining the last 2 faults is correct, and it appears that as a new fault happens it pushes the old #1 down to #2 and discards the old #2 entry.


After the above process the #1 fault for each battery is lost BMS communications. And #2 is Cell Overvoltage. Which I am pretty sure was left over from before.


So now it is a waiting game to see when/if the COV faults return. I still don't have an answer about why the behavior changed from the older FW where if only one battery had a COV that the battery with the COV fault was the only one that would go off line. But with the new FW it appears that it causes both batteries to shutdown.


When I get some more details I'll post another update, but it will likely be a week or two before I would feel confident that the COV storms are over.

 

[Judge64]

I tried to change Float again and it still fails. Just for grins I also tried it from the FireFly panel and that also doesn't save the change.

I can change the Float Voltage on the Xantrex app and it shows changed on the FireFly.


Just changed it from 14.4v to 13.6V


Also... thew Xantrex doc I have shows 14.4V as the float voltage.

 

[Judge64]

We are also exploring a power surge from the A/C. Xantrex seems to point to that as a possible issue on one here. Not sure why it would be with power change over....but if there is an "internal reset" as the power changes over, it could be like startup again. If that is the case, a soft start would correct it.

I have toyed with the idea of a Softstart.

We used to travel with our dog but she died on the way to Alaska last year. If we got another dog, my concern would be having the A/C on and shore power being lost.

If the Freedom X/C Pro kicks out an over-voltage error when the A/C compressor is running like I've seen in some testing, the issue is it doesn't restart automatically after the error clears even though Automatic Restart After Error is ON. You have to power cycle the inverter.

I wondered if a Softstart would help.... but like you I can't understand why a surge would be an issue of the compressor was already running. The compressor starts fine when running off the batteries alone.

The transfer time is 20ms for Appliance Mode. I would think that would be fast enough to keep the compressor running.

UPS Mode has a 10ms transfer time. They said it shouldn't be used for appliances but I can't understand why that would be.

 

[burtbick]

I can change the Float Voltage on the Xantrex app and it shows changed on the FireFly.


Just changed it from 14.4v to 13.6V


Also... thew Xantrex doc I have shows 14.4V as the float voltage.

Thanks,


I'll try it again since I did the Xantrex suggested complete power down and back up, but when I restarted the inverter yesterday it was still refusing to let me change Float. So we'll see.


I'm waiting to hear back to see what other suggestions they have since eGen did the power cycle dance again over lunch after it had been fine from 9AM to noon.

 

[burtbick]

I have toyed with the idea of a Softstart.

We used to travel with our dog but she died on the way to Alaska last year. If we got another dog, my concern would be having the A/C on and shore power being lost.

If the Freedom X/C Pro kicks out an over-voltage error when the A/C compressor is running like I've seen in some testing, the issue is it doesn't restart automatically after the error clears even though Automatic Restart After Error is ON. You have to power cycle the inverter.

I wondered if a Softstart would help.... but like you I can't understand why a surge would be an issue of the compressor was already running. The compressor starts fine when running off the batteries alone.

The transfer time is 20ms for Appliance Mode. I would think that would be fast enough to keep the compressor running.

UPS Mode has a 10ms transfer time. They said it shouldn't be used for appliances but I can't understand why that would be.

Yes, it seems strange. If you consider that if you are already on battery the A/C starts up and runs fine.



And I was thinking the same thing with the 20 msec change over time. But even if the compressor dropped out I would hope that either the air conditioner or maybe FireFly would have a short cycle delay built in before trying to restart the compressor. And if that was the case that should just look like the compressor starting normally when on battery.


Now maybe, just maybe, that 20 msec period is just long enough to mess things up so that the compressor is in some kind of lock up when the inverter finally kicks in and that would significantly increase the current drain leading to the overload. It seems unlikely, but that could explain the way it is working.


If that theory is correct I'm not sure that a soft start would resolve it.


Hopefully between Dynamax and Xantrex they can work out what the issue actually is.

 

[Judge64]

Yes, it seems strange. If you consider that if you are already on battery the A/C starts up and runs fine.



And I was thinking the same thing with the 20 msec change over time. But even if the compressor dropped out I would hope that either the air conditioner or maybe FireFly would have a short cycle delay built in before trying to restart the compressor. And if that was the case that should just look like the compressor starting normally when on battery.


Now maybe, just maybe, that 20 msec period is just long enough to mess things up so that the compressor is in some kind of lock up when the inverter finally kicks in and that would significantly increase the current drain leading to the overload. It seems unlikely, but that could explain the way it is working.


If that theory is correct I'm not sure that a soft start would resolve it.


Hopefully between Dynamax and Xantrex they can work out what the issue actually is.

I am surprised FireFly does not have a short-cycle delay built-in for the A/Ccompressor..... but they don't. Coleman-Mach offers an add-on for some model but I am not sure it works on our unit.


But this leads me to a possibility we are seeing here.....

For argument's sake lets assume a 20ms transfer is not fast enough. Shore power drops and the A/C compressor stops because 20ms was not fast enough. The thermostat is calling for cooling so as soon as the Inverter is inverting it tries to fire the compressor and the high pressure from the short cycle causes the E03 Overload Error.

The Automatic Restart makes its 3 attempts.... too quickly for the pressure to drop in the compressor..... the Automatic Restart fails.... and the inverter requires a hard reset.

I'm not sure a SoftStart solves this problem. My Progressive Industries EMS has a 2 1/2 minutes delay for fridge and A/C compressor short-cycling. I wish the Xantrex Inverter would let you configure time between restart attempts.

But FireFly or Coleman should have the delay built-in.


When I get home, I may try the UPS Setting to see if 10ms makes a difference.

 

[burtbick]

OK, I just tried to change the Float voltage again.


Both the app and FireFly do NOT save the change. FF doesn't flash any kind of error message, while the Xantrex app says "Applied Unsuccessfully".



My best guess is that on your Inverter both the custom charge settings are unlocked while they only unlocked Absorption on mine. That seems to be the only thing that fits.


So still waiting on Xantrex support for that one as well.

 

[burtbick]

I am surprised FireFly does not have a short-cycle delay built-in for the A/Ccompressor..... but they don't. Coleman-Mach offers an add-on for some model but I am not sure it works on our unit.


But this leads me to a possibility we are seeing here.....

For argument's sake lets assume a 20ms transfer is not fast enough. Shore power drops and the A/C compressor stops because 20ms was not fast enough. The thermostat is calling for cooling so as soon as the Inverter is inverting it tries to fire the compressor and the high pressure from the short cycle causes the E03 Overload Error.

The Automatic Restart makes its 3 attempts.... too quickly for the pressure to drop in the compressor..... the Automatic Restart fails.... and the inverter requires a hard reset.

I'm not sure a SoftStart solves this problem. My Progressive Industries EMS has a 2 1/2 minutes delay for fridge and A/C compressor short-cycling. I wish the Xantrex Inverter would let you configure time between restart attempts.

But FireFly or Coleman should have the delay built-in.


When I get home, I may try the UPS Setting to see if 10ms makes a difference.

That's what I was theorizing as well. And since there is no short cycle delay available I think that this is the case.


Now they don't recommend the 10 msec change over for appliances with motors. You might want to check it out a little more to make sure that using it with a high current motor appliance like the A/C won't damage the inverter.


If it just means that the inverter would whine, and fault but not get damaged that's one thing but if it could put undue stress on the inverter leading to premature failure then that's a whole new ball game.

 

[Judge64]

OK, I just tried to change the Float voltage again.


Both the app and FireFly do NOT save the change. FF doesn't flash any kind of error message, while the Xantrex app says "Applied Unsuccessfully".



My best guess is that on your Inverter both the custom charge settings are unlocked while they only unlocked Absorption on mine. That seems to be the only thing that fits.


So still waiting on Xantrex support for that one as well.

I have the same firmware version as you on my replacement inverter and I can also change the Adsorption Voltage.

That being said….. I have had to change Xantrex settings multiple times in the FireFly to get them to save. FireFly is also buggy with the Xantrex control….. just not as buggy as the Combi control.

I only use the Xantrex app to make changes to the Freedom Pro X/C. What version firmware is on your Bluetooth Remote Panel?

Maybe your Remote Panel has older firmware that is not compatible with the new Inverter firmware?

 

[Judge64]

That's what I was theorizing as well. And since there is no short cycle delay available I think that this is the case.


Now they don't recommend the 10 msec change over for appliances with motors. You might want to check it out a little more to make sure that using it with a high current motor appliance like the A/C won't damage the inverter.


If it just means that the inverter would whine, and fault but not get damaged that's one thing but if it could put undue stress on the inverter leading to premature failure then that's a whole new ball game.

The compressor draws its heaviest load at startup. If it is still running the load should not be as great when the switchnover occurs.

Not sure why 10ms would be an issue if the Inverter can normally start the compressor running on battery?

 

[burtbick]

The compressor draws its heaviest load at startup. If it is still running the load should not be as great when the switchnover occurs.

Not sure why 10ms would be an issue if the Inverter can normally start the compressor running on battery?

Just basing my concern on the inverter specs that say for transfer mode NOTE: Do not connect motor loads when in UPS transfer mode.


It says to refer to troubleshooting section, but all that is there is about
High Surge Loads
About induction motors, etc. requiring high surge currents to start. And that the Freedom inverter may not be able to start some of the motors...


It doesn't specifically address the UPS mode and why to not use it with high current motors.

 

[Judge64]

Just basing my concern on the inverter specs that say for transfer mode NOTE: Do not connect motor loads when in UPS transfer mode.


It says to refer to troubleshooting section, but all that is there is about
High Surge Loads
About induction motors, etc. requiring high surge currents to start. And that the Freedom inverter may not be able to start some of the motors...


It doesn't specifically address the UPS mode and why to not use it with high current motors.

Then maybe that why it gives an E03. But Xantrex isn't saying it can't handle a 15,000BTU Compressor.

If 20ms vs 10ms matters that much, I would think there would be issues in general starting a 15,000BTU Compressor.

 

[burtbick]

Then maybe that why it gives an E03. But Xantrex isn't saying it can't handle a 15,000BTU Compressor.

If 20ms vs 10ms matters that much, I would think there would be issues in general starting a 15,000BTU Compressor.

You are probably correct. I would think that since they point you to the troubleshooting page if it was a big issue to change to UPS mode they should have some specifics about it.


So I guess give it a try and see what it does.

 

[Bearii-FRF]

The compressor draws its heaviest load at startup. If it is still running the load should not be as great when the switchnover occurs.

Not sure why 10ms would be an issue if the Inverter can normally start the compressor running on battery?

I'm having a hard time buying the 20ms delay as being an issue. That time should be plenty fast enough to do the switch over, especially since the inverter is designed to support appliances. Chris - did you have the issue in your Super C with this same inverter?

As far as restarting, I'm not sure, first when we start our A/C the unit doesn't automatically start the compressor, there is a delay of several seconds where it sheds the load on the Firefly. I haven't tried short cycling the unit but I wonder if we did if it would just shed longer?? I can't do it now because it's too cold here.

Something else is screwy here, you can easily go from battery to shore power with the A/C running - IMHO something else is not configured properly that is causing this issue. I hate to say it but the Xantrex guys treated this so indifferently when I was at Dynamax that I'm not even sure they believe us or are trying to resolve it. The "someday" we'll figure it out attitude I got and the "we'll work on a software upgrade" just didn't work for me. Like you guys I oversaw huge software development teams for telco systems, it sure felt like I was being brushed off by the techies who didn't know the real answer and weren't super thrilled about trying to figure it out. To me a real electrical engineer with an oscilloscope and good software engineer should be able to figure this out in an afternoon of testing. As the saying goes, "Let's Get Er Done!!"

 

[burtbick]

I'm having a hard time buying the 20ms delay as being an issue. That time should be plenty fast enough to do the switch over, especially since the inverter is designed to support appliances. Chris - did you have the issue in your Super C with this same inverter?

As far as restarting, I'm not sure, first when we start our A/C the unit doesn't automatically start the compressor, there is a delay of several seconds where it sheds the load on the Firefly. I haven't tried short cycling the unit but I wonder if we did if it would just shed longer?? I can't do it now because it's too cold here.

Something else is screwy here, you can easily go from battery to shore power with the A/C running - IMHO something else is not configured properly that is causing this issue. I hate to say it but the Xantrex guys treated this so indifferently when I was at Dynamax that I'm not even sure they believe us or are trying to resolve it. The "someday" we'll figure it out attitude I got and the "we'll work on a software upgrade" just didn't work for me. Like you guys I oversaw huge software development teams for telco systems, it sure felt like I was being brushed off by the techies who didn't know the real answer and weren't super thrilled about trying to figure it out. To me a real electrical engineer with an oscilloscope and good software engineer should be able to figure this out in an afternoon of testing. As the saying goes, "Let's Get Er Done!!"

I do agree that the field support likely don't have a good handle on what is happening with some of the corner cases. And it would seem that with a little bit of instrumentation and testing they should be able to spot what is happening. It would take a little bit of time to set up the equipment for testing, but shouldn't be that bad.


If Dyanmax is seeing this on at least on MH at the factory then maybe then can press the issue some more.

 

[bclemens]

They "thought" it might be the case, but the sales guys walk all finished units. They have seen this a couple of times, but we have never been able to recreate the issue. Very frustrating. We just put a Micro-Air soft start in the one that Xantrex noted and we had no issues. So is that no issues because that solved whatever problem there was, or no issues because we can't always recreate the issues.

I wanted to have them test it again, plugged into shore, everything running, then yank shore power, but I think it got shipped before I got to it.

 

[burtbick]

They "thought" it might be the case, but the sales guys walk all finished units. They have seen this a couple of times, but we have never been able to recreate the issue. Very frustrating. We just put a Micro-Air soft start in the one that Xantrex noted and we had no issues. So is that no issues because that solved whatever problem there was, or no issues because we can't always recreate the issues.

I wanted to have them test it again, plugged into shore, everything running, then yank shore power, but I think it got shipped before I got to it.

Yes, with somewhat intermittent issues it can be frustrating because you change something and it seems to be working great. Then some time later it acts up again.


It's kind of like the we are chasing after the inverter was replaced and the FW TSB was done.


Prior to that the cell detail screen would show a couple of cells over voltage, but we never seemed to have an over voltage alarm state. And certainly didn't have the eGen system completely go off line. But since the new FW and the new inverter change out it's been consistently completely shutting down 12V (both batteries disconnect). Since we are connected to shore power then batteries come back on line in about 30 seconds, and if they both continue to see over voltage faults they shut down again. Rinse and repeat.


Xantrex suggested pulling shore power, inverter off, and batteries off for at least 10 minutes. I did 20 minutes and brought everything back on line, shore power last. It was good for maybe 4 or 5 hours, then the batteries shut down again due to COV. But after they restarted that time it remained stable.


Unfortunately with the FW change you cannot see how many cells are reporting over voltage, or how much over voltage.


One theory I have is that previously the number of COV cells were below the threshold for the battery to shut down to protect itself so I never saw that happen, but now for some reason more cells are over voltage and trips the threshold. But that is just a guess. I've posed that question to Xantrex and am waiting for their next suggestion.


But right now the eGen system is unreliable for me if I'm connected to shore power, and it sometimes works fine for days and then has a fit of COV faults causing the shutdown.


And as I've mentioned before when 12V goes away and FireFly comes back on line any climate settings are reverted to off. So you can't be away from the RV for very long it it is hot or cold out and you have shore power on. And repeated power cycling of 12V with the fridge on will be another failure point.

 

[burtbick]

On the remote panel FW, and being able to change the Float voltage value:


I do appear to have the latest remote panel FW.


And trying to change that setting on the remote panel OR the inverter directly also fails. It does appear that on mine they locked the Float setting. Also waiting to hear back from Xantrex on that issue.


I hope to hear something later today.

 

[Judge64]

On the remote panel FW, and being able to change the Float voltage value:


I do appear to have the latest remote panel FW.


And trying to change that setting on the remote panel OR the inverter directly also fails. It does appear that on mine they locked the Float setting. Also waiting to hear back from Xantrex on that issue.


I hope to hear something later today.

Interesting.... we have the same FW version on our replacement Inverters but I can change the Adsorption and Float Voltages.

Although I had two anomalies on my trip this week. Check out the Xantrex eGen Issues Log thread for what happened on my trip this week.