Isata 3 Freedom Edition Owners Only - Xantrex eGen System Log

[Judge64]

Coleman was not part of that TSB as we did not see the issue there. The start up draw is lower....but we can take a look

So you’re saying the SoftStart TSB would only be for GE 15K Heat Pumps?

I though all the Freedom Editions were on Coleman-Mach

The C-M data I found showed a startip surge of 7000W. Can’t remember the exact numbers since I am not at my computer.

 

[bclemens]

The standard GE was too big of a draw, so we only used Colman Machs on the Freedom.

Not long after, GE approached us and wanted us to upgrade to the GE Profile, which goes from one fan to two fans and from our testing was a lower draw than the standard GE and slightly better than the Coleman. We changed the entire line over to the GE Profile and did not have any issues. They may have changed the compressor or something, but then we did start seeing issues. So the TSB was only GE's...but mainly because we only built (3) Freedoms with the Coleman Mach? give or take.

It's not enough that I would draw a hard line in the sand.

 

[llwill]

I guess I am 1 of the 3 lucky/unlucky one to have a Coleman unit.

 

[Judge64]

The standard GE was too big of a draw, so we only used Colman Machs on the Freedom.

Not long after, GE approached us and wanted us to upgrade to the GE Profile, which goes from one fan to two fans and from our testing was a lower draw than the standard GE and slightly better than the Coleman. We changed the entire line over to the GE Profile and did not have any issues. They may have changed the compressor or something, but then we did start seeing issues. So the TSB was only GE's...but mainly because we only built (3) Freedoms with the Coleman Mach? give or take.

It's not enough that I would draw a hard line in the sand.

Might be more Coleman’s than you think. Including myself, I know 4 others with the C-M. And we have all had inverter failures.

Since your in this deep, might be worth a discussion with C-M. They don’t put out an engineering document for every model but the 15K data I found seems to have a 7000W+ surge startup.

 

[bclemens]

I guess the bigger question is WHY the start up surge.

Coleman Mach 15 running watts is supposed to be 1560 watts, with a start up of 3900watts

The GE calls out 2000-3000

 

[xrpb11a]

I guess I am 1 of the 3 lucky/unlucky one to have a Coleman unit.

I took delivery March 15th, and I have the Coleman Mach also...

 

[Judge64]

I guess the bigger question is WHY the start up surge.

Coleman Mach 15 running watts is supposed to be 1560 watts, with a start up of 3900watts

The GE calls out 2000-3000

So I very well could be wrong.... it would not be the first time. Just ask my wife...


But here is how I am coming up with my estimated startup wattage requirements.....

The Compressor Locked Rotor Amps is 63A.

110V x 63A = 6930W

I have been told that the Locked Rotor Amps is the potential maximum current for 2 - 3 seconds at compressor start.

Now the person who told me that had some HVAC experience but that information may be totally wrong and giving me a false assumption (and why I suggested just verifying with Coleman-Mach). I have also seen other data suggesting startup surge could be close to 7000W for a 15K BTU RV A/C unit.


So based on the 3900W, it would be pulling about 35A at startup. If that is the case, the 3900W and 35A is well within spec.


And if all of that is correct, then the inverter failures that have occurred with the C-M units may be completely unrelated and it might be back to a bad production run or heat related failures.

 

[xrpb11a]

So I very well could be wrong.... it would not be the first time. Just ask my wife...


But here is how I am coming up with my estimated startup wattage requirements.....

The Compressor Locked Rotor Amps is 63A.

110V x 63A = 6930W

I have been told that the Locked Rotor Amps is the potential maximum current for 2 - 3 seconds at compressor start.

Now the person who told me that had some HVAC experience but that information may be totally wrong and giving me a false assumption (and why I suggested just verifying with Coleman-Mach). I have also seen other data suggesting startup surge could be close to 7000W for a 15K BTU RV A/C unit.


So based on the 3900W, it would be pulling about 35A at startup. If that is the case, the 3900W and 35A is well within spec.


And if all of that is correct, then the inverter failures that have occurred with the C-M units may be completely unrelated and it might be back to a bad production run or heat related failures.

I noticed that chart is for Coleman Mach PN 482X4-8XX
My CM is PN 45000-0792
I could not find a similar chart for my PN so not sure we are operating under the specs in the chart.

 

[Judge64]

I noticed that chart is for Coleman Mach PN 482X4-8XX
My CM is PN 45000-0792
I could not find a similar chart for my PN so not sure we are operating under the specs in the chart.

I did mention that C-M does have engineering specs posted for ever model. But the one I posted is very close and a 15K BTU Heat Pump unit. The specs are likely close enough for government work. I doubt the LRA is significantly less.

 

[xrpb11a]

I did mention that C-M does have engineering specs posted for ever model. But the one I posted is very close and a 15K BTU Heat Pump unit. The specs are likely close enough for government work. I doubt the LRA is significantly less.

Well the only way to make sure is to climb up on the roof and remove the AC shroud.
No chance of that happening!

 

[xrpb11a]

Here is the datasheet for my air conditioner directly from Airxcel.
The 1st digit to the right of the decimal is off in the data sheet name, but the rest looks good.

 

[xrpb11a]

A Locked Rotor is a compressor failure, so the AC will pull the 61 amps if the rotor is locked up...

 

[Bearii-FRF]

The standard GE was too big of a draw, so we only used Colman Machs on the Freedom.

Not long after, GE approached us and wanted us to upgrade to the GE Profile, which goes from one fan to two fans and from our testing was a lower draw than the standard GE and slightly better than the Coleman. We changed the entire line over to the GE Profile and did not have any issues. They may have changed the compressor or something, but then we did start seeing issues. So the TSB was only GE's...but mainly because we only built (3) Freedoms with the Coleman Mach? give or take.

It's not enough that I would draw a hard line in the sand.

Hmmm... three with C-M sounds low, I have one, so does Chris and Burt - right? I see at least two more just on this thread, any others? I had a GE Profile on my last rig, lasted less than 10 months before catastrophic failure. It was a loud annoying unit, maybe they're better now? In our users group on that rig there was failure after failure on those GE units - probably Covid units. I replaced it with a RecPro, quiet, had a remote control, seemed like a good basic unit and was still working well when I sold the rig.

 

[Judge64]

Hmmm... three with C-M sounds low, I have one, so does Chris and Burt - right? I see at least two more just on this thread, any others? I had a GE Profile on my last rig, lasted less than 10 months before catastrophic failure. It was a loud annoying unit, maybe they're better now? In our users group on that rig there was failure after failure on those GE units - probably Covid units. I replaced it with a RecPro, quiet, had a remote control, seemed like a good basic unit and was still working well when I sold the rig.

I've had 4 Coleman-Mach 13.5BTU A/C units and now the 15K BTU A/C unit and never had an issue.

Over on the Facebook forum I have seen more GE failures than C-M failures. One guy... and I feel for him... is on his 4th GE unit.

As long as the startup surge is actually under the 6000W Xantrex spec, I'm not worried. But I do find it interesting that 5 or 6 of us with C-M units have had Inverter failures.

Maybe related to the C-M startup surge or maybe not. It could just be a bad production run of inverters. It could also be too much heat in the battery compartment.

Xantrex says the Freedom X/C Pro derates at 104F. I know my battery compartment has reach 110F - 115F several times and that is with my powered ventilation system.

 

[gandl]

Hmmm... three with C-M sounds low, I have one, so does Chris and Burt - right? I see at least two more just on this thread, any others? I had a GE Profile on my last rig, lasted less than 10 months before catastrophic failure. It was a loud annoying unit, maybe they're better now? In our users group on that rig there was failure after failure on those GE units - probably Covid units. I replaced it with a RecPro, quiet, had a remote control, seemed like a good basic unit and was still working well when I sold the rig.

Our Freedom edition purchased October 2023 has the CM AC as well. In fact we had to change the AC configuration on the FF from GE to CM. Thankfully no inverter failure for us so far. Though we have not used the AC with inverter too many times.

 

[Judge64]

A Locked Rotor is a compressor failure, so the AC will pull the 61 amps if the rotor is locked up...

So I just found the attached info from a company that makes an EasyStart solution called Micro-Air. Now they may just be publishing this data to sell more of their product but according to this chart a 15K BTU can surge 65A at startup. They do put a disclaimer that specs will vary by A/C manufacturer.

So for arguments sake....

65A Start x 110V = 7150W

Lets say the C-M takes 55A to start then it is ~6000W and within the spec but it would be nice if C-M published this data to know for sure.



So lets take it one step further and assume the attached chart is marketing propaganda that it takes 60-65A to start a 15K unit and its just wrong. Then let's just look at a true locked rotor situation.

Lets assume the A/C is running and shore power is interrupted (briefly or long-term). It could be an EMS detected that shore power voltage was too low or simply the power just went out. Several of us with C-M units have seen E03 errors when shore power goes out with the compressor running. The E03 is an inverter overload situation.

A few of us have determined that there isn't a Compressor Start Delay in the FireFly or the C-M unit itself to prevent short-cycling.

If the inverter is not switching over fast enough to keep it running and the compressor stops.... and then immediately tries to restart when inverter power comes up.... you would have a situation where the compressor is locked up from the pressure being too high trying to restart immediately after shutting down..... a short-cycle.

If you have the inverter set to Auto Restart after an error, the Inverter may try to start up the compressor again after the E03 error clears. It will do so up to 3 times before finally shutting down and requiring an inverter reboot to clear the error. This is what a few of us have seen happen with the C-M units. It can take 1 1/2 - 2 minutes for the pressure to bleed off.... but the inverter auto-restarts happen very quickly so the E03 error makes sense.

When this happens the surge would be 62A (according to your document) x 110V or 6820A or about 13% over the inverter surge spec.

Does this mean anything at all in terms of the inverter failures some of us have seen? Is it contributing to some of the inverter failures? Maybe or maybe not. There isn't enough data to be certain.

It could just be a bad batch of inverters.... but a SoftStart could rectify the E03 error when shore power is interrupted while the compressor is running. It would also reduce the stress on the Inverter when starting the compressor.


All I'm suggested is it may be worth some investigation and lab measurements of the average startup surge of the C-M unit and also the surge when there is an interruption of shore power and the inverter tries to take over running the compressor.


The SoftStart TSB is for the GE Units but this discussion is indicating there are several C-M units out there and many of us have seen the E03. And the only inverter failures I have seen reported on this site and the Facebook site are with the C-M units..... so far.

 

[xrpb11a]

So I just found the attached info from a company that makes an EasyStart solution called Micro-Air. Now they may just be publishing this data to sell more of their product but according to this chart a 15K BTU can surge 65A at startup. They do put a disclaimer that specs will vary by A/C manufacturer.

It looks like "can surge 65A", and "locked rotor spec of 62A" are the same thing. They are not stating the normal "startup surge", but the "locked rotor" surge.
Your analysis about short cycling the compressor for park power fluctuations is very interesting. Especially when a surge protector is installed in the RV.

The inverter will switch from shore to battery power when shore volts are less than 85 volts and greater than 140 volts.

The surge protector (Hughes 30 amp bluetooth surge protector) will switch off shore power if it is lower than 104 volts or greather than 132.

I just installed the surge protector, so up to this point my low voltage switchover point has been 85 volts. So my air conditioning has not been cycling between power sources when the park voltage is between 104 and 85.

I can't recall any instance so far where, when plugged into shore power, I have switched over to battery power while running the AC...

 

[Judge64]

It looks like "can surge 65A", and "locked rotor spec of 62A" are the same thing. They are not stating the normal "startup surge", but the "locked rotor" surge.
Your analysis about short cycling the compressor for park power fluctuations is very interesting. Especially when a surge protector is installed in the RV.

The inverter will switch from shore to battery power when shore volts are less than 85 volts and greater than 140 volts.

The surge protector (Hughes 30 amp bluetooth surge protector) will switch off shore power if it is lower than 104 volts or greather than 132.

I just installed the surge protector, so up to this point my low voltage switchover point has been 85 volts. So my air conditioning has not been cycling between power sources when the park voltage is between 104 and 85.

I can't recall any instance so far where, when plugged into shore power, I have switched over to battery power while running the AC...

I would never run an A/C below 104V. You can do damage to the compressor. I installed a hardwired EMS before I did anything for that reason.

 

[bclemens]

As I said, the soft start would certainly not hurt and we take that question out of the equation. While our initial thought was that the GE as the main one affect, I already told my guys to include all Freedom's at this point. Adding another 10 is not going to change my world, and it should give longer run times anyway.

 

[xrpb11a]

I would never run an A/C below 104V. You can do damage to the compressor. I installed a hardwired EMS before I did anything for that reason.

Looks like the incoming AC voltage lowpoint is adjustable in the inverter...