Isata 3 Freedom Edition Owners Only - Xantrex eGen System Log

[burtbick]

Another data point. I tested with a folding portable 200 W panel. Just laying flat on the ground I was getting better than 20V open circuit and about 7 amps short circuit current. Since none of the GoPower panels were giving me more than .2 amps short circuit current it definitely looks like the panels are toast.

I'll pull the slide in and take the portable panel up on the roof and spread it out, and connect it to the MPPT just for one last test.

I'm hoping that this is just a fluke with the production batch of GoPower panels for whatever reason.

A couple of days ago I had a chance to do more testing. The panels had been producing very little power for a good number of days. At most 2 watts on occasion. And prior to that it was only getting a max PV power of 5 to 9 watts. In fact since the panels appeared to creep back to life for a few days in mid-February the output was dropping again even with many days of full sun.

So I got back up and unhooked the front driver side panel and tested it again. In full sun it was only producing between 5 an 6 volts open circuit. And 0 amps short circuit current.

So I took my folding 200 Watt panel up on the roof and laid it out. The folding panel was producing about 22 volts open circuit and 7 amps short circuit current.

Next I plugged the folding panel in taking the place of the front driver side GoPower panel. Almost immediately the Victron app showed solid output from that panel. I only had it connected for maybe a max of 30 minutes. During that time it produced a Yield of 60 watt hours, and a max PV power of 126 watts.

So pretty conclusive that the GoPower panels are toast. The one appears to be almost totally dead, and the other two are really not much better.

So this is definitely added to my warranty list for the trip to Dyanamax.

 

[cfosty]

Hi, I haven't been following this thread lately because I don't get notifications even though I'm 'watching' it. But just came by to see what was being said and noticed the discussion about the solar panels. Add my rig to the list of ones where all 3 solar panels have failed. They are being replaced under warranty ATM, but I guess I should expect the new ones to fail at some not-to-distant point and look into getting rigid ones. But who knows, maybe they'll be fine .

 

[Larry-NC]

Hi, I haven't been following this thread lately because I don't get notifications even though I'm 'watching' it. But just came by to see what was being said and noticed the discussion about the solar panels. Add my rig to the list of ones where all 3 solar panels have failed. They are being replaced under warranty ATM, but I guess I should expect the new ones to fail at some not-to-distant point and look into getting rigid ones. But who knows, maybe they'll be fine .

Without access to the Failure Analysis Report and Root Cause Analysis, you can only wait and see.

 

[xrpb11a]

Without access to the Failure Analysis Report and Root Cause Analysis, you can only wait and see.

Refusal of the solar cell manufacturer to give an operating temperature range in their specifications sheet is damning circumstantial evidence..
When they fail just replace with normal rigid solar cells that actually specify an operating temperature range.

 

[Judge64]

It may be a manufacturer issue and not an issue being a flexible-panel.

I've been using flexible panels since 2019 on RV's and boats. I've only had one issue back in 2020 and it was a single panel that delaminated and was replaced under warranty.

I have been using Renogy flexible panels for a while now and pleased with their performance.

I installed a Renogy Ultra Flexible 100W Solar Panel on the fiberglass hardtop for my boat. I store it on a rack 30 feet in the air so plugging it in to charge the house and starting batteries is not easy.

I installed it two years ago and it still works like a champ. I've never had to plug in the onboard charger to charge the batteries. It has also held up in the Florida sunlight and heat.

I am a proponent of flexible panels because of their lightweight, ease of mounting and ability to adjust to the contour of the surface to which they are mounted.

 

[cfosty]

Thanks all. I also had 175wt renogy flexible panel on my last rig and agree on the benefits. I never had a problem with that one but I sold the rig after ~1.5 years.

 

[burtbick]

It may be a manufacturer issue and not an issue being a flexible-panel.

I've been using flexible panels since 2019 on RV's and boats. I've only had one issue back in 2020 and it was a single panel that delaminated and was replaced under warranty.

I have been using Renogy flexible panels for a while now and pleased with their performance.

I installed a Renogy Ultra Flexible 100W Solar Panel on the fiberglass hardtop for my boat. I store it on a rack 30 feet in the air so plugging it in to charge the house and starting batteries is not easy.

I installed it two years ago and it still works like a champ. I've never had to plug in the onboard charger to charge the batteries. It has also held up in the Florida sunlight and heat.

I am a proponent of flexible panels because of their lightweight, ease of mounting and ability to adjust to the contour of the surface to which they are mounted.

I suspect that you are correct. But there might be another issue with the GoPower panels. On their website they have a tech note that says if their panels are connected in parallel, as is done on the Isata 3, you need to have a reverse blocking diode installed for each panel.

When I was troubleshooting the failure I noted that there were inline fuses installed on the roof for each panel, but I didn't see any blocking diodes. So unless the diodes were incorporated into the joining connectors being used they likely are not there.

I verified with GoPower that the blocking diodes are required when their panels are installed in parallel. And they agreed with my assessment that the panels have indeed failed.

It is unknown if the lack of blocking diodes is what led to all 3 of the panels failing, but is a good possibility.

I've passed this on to Dynamax as well as discussing the possibility of replacing with the rigid panels so we will see what is found when we are at Dyamax in a little over a week

The other thing to note is that the "solar cutoff switch in the battery compartment on the Freedom Edition is downstream from the MPPT controller. So while that removes the solar output from the batteries it does NOT disconnect the solar panels from the MPPT controller.

One of my future tasks is to add a breaker/cutoff between the panels and the MPPT controller. I have a suitable solar breaker/cutoff but need to do more work to be able to squeeze it into the space near the MPPT, or come up with a better location.

 

[xrpb11a]

It may be a manufacturer issue and not an issue being a flexible-panel.

I've been using flexible panels since 2019 on RV's and boats. I've only had one issue back in 2020 and it was a single panel that delaminated and was replaced under warranty.

I have been using Renogy flexible panels for a while now and pleased with their performance.

I installed a Renogy Ultra Flexible 100W Solar Panel on the fiberglass hardtop for my boat. I store it on a rack 30 feet in the air so plugging it in to charge the house and starting batteries is not easy.

I installed it two years ago and it still works like a champ. I've never had to plug in the onboard charger to charge the batteries. It has also held up in the Florida sunlight and heat.

I am a proponent of flexible panels because of their lightweight, ease of mounting and ability to adjust to the contour of the surface to which they are mounted.

The renogy panel has published operating specs of -40°F to 176°F so it sounds like heat should not affect them.

 

[bclemens]

GoPower started including the diodes in their panel. Not sure when, but it has been a while. (years)

 

[burtbick]

GoPower started including the diodes in their panel. Not sure when, but it has been a while. (years)

That's interesting since I was told specifically by GoPower that they need to be added. That was just a few days ago. And they haven't updated their tech note to indicate any specific dates related to needing to add the external diodes. And it may depend on which series panel it is.

 

[bclemens]

Both things could be true. They could be sending us our kits with diodes (inline) but not individual panels? not sure. I just know this came up a while back, diodes got mentioned, I asked about them, and was told they are adding them now. Been a while though, and it could have been glass panels we were talking about.

 

[burtbick]

Both things could be true. They could be sending us our kits with diodes (inline) but not individual panels? not sure. I just know this came up a while back, diodes got mentioned, I asked about them, and was told they are adding them now. Been a while though, and it could have been glass panels we were talking about.

Thanks Brian, That's correct both can be true. Typically the glass panels I've had for testing all had built in blocking diodes, and that can be a failure point as well. I'm guessing that the GoPower flexible panels may not include them and that is why their tech told me that the blocking diodes need to be installed since we were talking about the failure of my 3 flexible panels. It's unknown if the failure in my case, and others, with the GoPower flexible panels could be caused by the lack of the reverse blocking diodes. It could be due to heat, or just a bad batch of the panels from the factory. But since the lack of blocking diodes can cause at least one of the panels to run hotter and also reduce the effective output it is something to review when they are being replaced on Monday during our visit.

 

[burtbick]

I wanted to add some details on an issue that still remains with the eGen system. That is the inverter often giving an E03 overload error and shutting down if the A/C compressor is running and you lose shore power.

There have been a number of theories about this but I think that my original thought that this is due to "short cycling" of the A/C. I was reading the A/C user manual again and there is a brief section on short cycling. That states that when the compressor is running the system is in a high pressure state. When in this state the starting current will be significantly greater than normal startup. This can cause the breaker to trip (that's what they were saying in the manual).

But with the Xantrex 3000 Freedom inverter when the change over happens the inverter is trying to start and FireFly is still trying to run the A/C compressor. So the inverter is hit with the high pressure startup current which far exceeds its surge capacity. At least that seems to fit what I see happening.

In my case with the Coleman Mach 10 heat pump most of the time when I lose shore power while the A/C or heat pump is running the compressor the inverter will kick an E03 error and shut down. Once in a while it will manage to handle it, and that fits what the user manual says.

Since the inverter can handle normal startup current for the A/C compressor I'm pretty sure that it is the short cycle problem causing this failure.

So what would be the solution? According to the user manual you should wait 2 to 3 minutes before running the A/C again. I would say 4 minutes for good measure.

If FireFly had some smarts added to monitor the shore power present signal then FF could temporarily turn off the A/C compressor, start a 4 minute timer, and when the timer expires re-enable the compressor and normal operation should resume.

Basically somewhere in the system the ability to add a short cycle delay needs to be added in order to fix this problem.

I haven't determined yet if the A/C uses the RV-C CAN bus for control from FF. If FF is simply acting like a standard thermostat then it might be possible to add an Arduino or Raspberry Pi and monitor the shore power present line in the battery compartment. Use that to energize a relay to break the path to the A/C controller and start the 4 minute timer.

FF should be able to check the transfer switch that it uses to report shore power to detect the power loss and internally disable the A/C for the 4 minute window. But that assumes that it would get the notification from the transfer switch that is built into the inverter in a timely fashion. This might also require some coordination with Xantrex to add a configuration option to delay starting the inverter long enough to make sure that the shore power loss has been processed so the A/C will be over during the inverter startup.

I think this approach, or something similar, will fix this annoyance.

We are thinking about traveling with a pet again, and that makes resolving this issue much more important for us, and others who travel with pets in a Freedom Edition.

 

[burtbick]

I wanted to add some details on an issue that still remains with the eGen system. That is the inverter often giving an E03 overload error and shutting down if the A/C compressor is running and you lose shore power.

There have been a number of theories about this but I think that my original thought that this is due to "short cycling" of the A/C. I was reading the A/C user manual again and there is a brief section on short cycling. That states that when the compressor is running the system is in a high pressure state. When in this state the starting current will be significantly greater than normal startup. This can cause the breaker to trip (that's what they were saying in the manual).

But with the Xantrex 3000 Freedom inverter when the change over happens the inverter is trying to start and FireFly is still trying to run the A/C compressor. So the inverter is hit with the high pressure startup current which far exceeds its surge capacity. At least that seems to fit what I see happening.

In my case with the Coleman Mach 10 heat pump most of the time when I lose shore power while the A/C or heat pump is running the compressor the inverter will kick an E03 error and shut down. Once in a while it will manage to handle it, and that fits what the user manual says.

Since the inverter can handle normal startup current for the A/C compressor I'm pretty sure that it is the short cycle problem causing this failure.

So what would be the solution? According to the user manual you should wait 2 to 3 minutes before running the A/C again. I would say 4 minutes for good measure.

If FireFly had some smarts added to monitor the shore power present signal then FF could temporarily turn off the A/C compressor, start a 4 minute timer, and when the timer expires re-enable the compressor and normal operation should resume.

Basically somewhere in the system the ability to add a short cycle delay needs to be added in order to fix this problem.

I haven't determined yet if the A/C uses the RV-C CAN bus for control from FF. If FF is simply acting like a standard thermostat then it might be possible to add an Arduino or Raspberry Pi and monitor the shore power present line in the battery compartment. Use that to energize a relay to break the path to the A/C controller and start the 4 minute timer.

FF should be able to check the transfer switch that it uses to report shore power to detect the power loss and internally disable the A/C for the 4 minute window. But that assumes that it would get the notification from the transfer switch that is built into the inverter in a timely fashion. This might also require some coordination with Xantrex to add a configuration option to delay starting the inverter long enough to make sure that the shore power loss has been processed so the A/C will be over during the inverter startup.

I think this approach, or something similar, will fix this annoyance.

We are thinking about traveling with a pet again, and that makes resolving this issue much more important for us, and others who travel with pets in a Freedom Edition.

One other thought I had would be to have Xantrex add an option for a 4 minute delay whenever shore power is lost before attempting to providing AC power. That would be a brute force approach since it would assume that the A/C was running at the time shore power went away, but it should fix the issue as well.

 

[burtbick]

Both things could be true. They could be sending us our kits with diodes (inline) but not individual panels? not sure. I just know this came up a while back, diodes got mentioned, I asked about them, and was told they are adding them now. Been a while though, and it could have been glass panels we were talking about.

Hi Brian, We're at Camp Dynamax for warranty work tomorrow. I was just on the GoPower site and in the link from the sales page for the Flex panels they say that the inline reverse blocking diodes are recommended with the GO POWER SOLAR FLEX MODULES. So it would appear that when they said that the diodes are built in that is for their rigid panels.

Just thought I'd let you know.

Thanks,