Storing LiFePO4 inside and under-bed?

[Aussieguy]

I accidentally left a pot of coffee on the stove
It was there 200 miles later
Earthquake and hurricane theories are a bit overblown unless you go off-road

Good battery mounting
and wiring practices will be just fine in a trailer

They been using lifepo4 for years
Very few reports of trouble
But there was one report of note that produced flame and smoke but it was easily extinguished.

If lifepo4 posed a real big threat we’ have heard by now

 

[timfromma]

I use 100aH Enduro Power batteries with no issues. Since this photo was taken, I've added 2 additional batteries bringing my total to 5 plus a solar controller.

 

[acdii]

I accidentally left a pot of coffee on the stove
It was there 200 miles later
Earthquake and hurricane theories are a bit overblown unless you go off-road

Good battery mounting
and wiring practices will be just fine in a trailer

They been using lifepo4 for years
Very few reports of trouble
But there was one report of note that produced flame and smoke but it was easily extinguished.

If lifepo4 posed a real big threat we’ have heard by now

You must not have been down I-39 in IL. There are some patches so rough the trailer becomes airborne if you hit them, and a few are undetectable until its too late. My rear kitchen fridge broke loose, busted several bottles of beer, cracked every drawer and bent the shelf it was on. Now when I go down I-39 I do it in the left lane, and if people don't like it, F em.

 

[RhumbleFish]

There are plenty of choppy roads out there, enough for us all to find 'em - one person's smooth pavement doesn't negate another person's rocky road (and vice versa). No matter what, we pretty much all still carry a spare, don't we?

acdii, you make a great point (be prepared, take precautions, have a plan, be ready to deal with emergencies), not only with regard to LiFePO4, but also trailer camping/RV'ing in general. Like you, I like to Be Be Be Prepared (the Motto of the Boy Scouts).

Important note from the second of your links, some of the things that others have been echoing:

Part 8. FAQs​

• Can LiFePO4 batteries go into thermal runaway?​

  LiFePO4 batteries have a lower risk of thermal runaway compared to other lithium-ion chemistries due to their stable chemistry and higher thermal stability.

• What is the thermal runaway temperature of the LFP battery?​

  The thermal runaway temperature of an LFP battery is typically above 250°C, which is higher than other lithium-ion chemistries.

• What are the thermal runaway gases in LFP?​

  LFP batteries produce minimal or no hazardous gases during thermal runaway, making them safer compared to other lithium-ion chemistries.

• Can lithium batteries have thermal runaway?​

  Yes, lithium batteries, including LiFePO4, can experience thermal runaway if they are subjected to extreme conditions, such as overheating, overcharging, or physical damage.

No one is saying that thermal runway or catastrophic failure of a LiFePO4 isn't possible, they are only saying that such is LESS likely (especially compared to other, much more 'fragile' Lithium-based battery types) and that some of the offgassing you have mentioned is really more of an issue with NON-LiFePO4 Lithium-based batteries.

And, as long as we're talking about it - a heads up on the dramatic photo in that link, as well - that's a pouch cell being shown next to "Part 5. What happens if LiFePO4 thermal runaway?" - the most prone LiFePO4 type to damage and thermal runway. Most of what RV owners will run into will be the (WAY more common and WAY safer) prismatic or cylindrical cell times.

Ultimately, it seems like what's happening is that information exchange (and the desire to share such) is starting to be taken personally. Discussion is going, someone throws something in, people disagree, the contributor feels invalidated. A little bit like Li-Ion being confused for LiFePO4. Happens ALL the time on forums.

All that being said, I'll be putting a smoke detector in with my electrical gear (and thank you for the suggestion). I just need to figure out what kind of smoke detector I need: ionization and/or photoelectric, likely one that does both (as offgassing doesn't necessarily add *particulate* matter to the air, which is the principal way smoke detectors, um, detect).

So, in case anyone needs to hear it (and we all need reminding once in a while) – I think you're doing a great job, you're a good contributor, you know and share a lot, I'm glad you're here and sharing and contributing and making this place MORE valuable to all of us, even the folks who haven't joined yet. Please - keep it up - I've got a lot to learn from everyone! (for what it's worth, I try to learn every day, the day I don't have anything left to learn will be a sad day. indeed).

It makes me feel so good to be here that if I can't be OUT camping, then I'm here TALKING about camping (heck, sometimes even when I AM camping, I'm here talking about camping).

Happy camping, everyone!

 

[acdii]

There is one gas that does get emitted that I came across on several different sites, threads, mainly those dealing with Solar power and storage, is that Lifepo4 can emit Carbon Monoxide as a runaway gas. Of all the gasses, this is the one that is easily detected and deadly. So, my only suggestion has been put in a CO and Smoke detector, thats all, its what I would do if I were to put batteries under my bed. The CO doesn't come from the electrolytes or lithium, but the polymers of the linings separating them.

Little story from when I was a teen and relates DIRECTLY with this thread. Back in the early 80's CB radios were the big thing. I had one that ran off a 12v car battery. I stored the darned thing under my bed, charged it there, used it and can still to this day smell the acid when I think about those days. I was young and dumb and didn't know the hazards of charging and using an LA battery in an enclosed space.

Be safe out there!

 

[tomupnorth]

We'll get a canary and keep it near the bed. If I don't hear it singing in the morning, I'll know I'm probably dead.

 

[Chuck754]

Has anyone installed their coach LiFePO4 batteries inside the cabin? How about in an enclosed cabinet or e.g. we have an underbed area they might fit?

It seems these are relatively safe if properly charged and monitored, but does anyone know any horror stories about this?

My interest might be simply to get these relatively heavy items further back from the tongue, and to keep our pass-thru storage as clear as possible. I'm thinking 200Ah at the moment.

First congrats on your new trailer. Hope it’s on a camping trip with you soon.

So I think the responses you had so far are from folks who have invested a lot of money in new battery systems with more than 200ah capacity. From your question it appears you want a 200 ah capacity which is easily done with the standard trailer/battery setup left on the tongue.

My question is why would you want to move a single 200 ah battery or two 100 ah batteries into the coach from the tongue. Twenty eight pounds is less than half the weight of lead acid batteries (with 1/4 of the useable capacity). Here are reasons to keep them on the trailer tongue.

1. A lot less money in wiring-use existing wires. All the wiring engineering has been done for you, just reconnect the wires.
2. Replace plastic box with inexpensive aluminum locking tool box for the tongue.
3. Weight of a lithium battery is a fraction of equivalent lead acid battery. You will be dramatically cutting tongue weight.
4. Lithium on the tongue with a BMS built in is maintenance free. BMS prevents cold weather charging plus a built in heater or a thermostat battery blanket/pad takes away worry. Cover solar panels, turn off power and lithium can store in the tongue box even in sub zero winters.
5. Heat from batteries is better handled on the tongue by venting the box-although I keep checking temperatures in my closed insulated tool box and have not experience any spike in temps or need for vents. Tongue tool boxes used for batteries can be foam insulated from direct sun in high heat climates which is a lot easier than trying to counter the oven effects inside a trailer.
6. If you ever want to add a dc to dc charger it will be a lot easier and cost you a lot less money (wire size and length) due to the run length from your vehicle battery to your leisure batteries.

Unless you are needing to add more batteries than a small tool box can handle, then in my opinion you are way ahead leaving them on the tongue. And if you are wanting more capacity, than plan on rewiring your trailer, to and from the converter to handle the hotter capacity. It all starts with the desire for more capacity, and then a larger inverter and ends with a very expensive major wiring project with more solar panels to keep up. But it looks cool! Ha

Practically speaking, 200 ah lithium batteries is perfect for the standard wiring, 1000 watt inverters and a couple solar panels in most new trailers. I think you have that just right. If you feel the need for more time boondocking then invest in a small Honda generator to keep those lithiums charged up every few days.

Hope this helps with your options for lithium.

 

[Aussieguy]

Only reason I moved them inside was wanted room for solar and possible inverter expansion

Otherwise lots of ways to store on the tongue

 

[tomupnorth]

First congrats on your new trailer. Hope it’s on a camping trip with you soon...

Thanks, I actually pick it up and drag it home on Wednesday. Excited but nervous about getting on a busy highway with it for the very first time, not to mention backing-it up my driveway.

Once safely home I will enjoy to root-around the thing and figure-out this battery/inverter situation. You've made a lot of good points--and I don't even know for example what battery is on the trailer tongue already.

I guess I've said this here a few times already but (maybe one & only) thing so far that gives me pause re: our new camper is the single axle. We'll be trying our best to resist loading the thing up & down with junk and adding to the weight of it...

 

[D W]

Has anyone here ever attempted to extinguish a lithium battery fire? They burn like white phosphorus. Hard to extinguish. Water acts like a catalyst and only feeds the fire.

 

[RhumbleFish]

Has anyone here ever attempted to extinguish a lithium battery fire? They burn like white phosphorus. Hard to extinguish. Water acts like a catalyst and only feeds the fire.

Guys, we have to be careful throwing terms around here (mainly because there are a lot of folks out there who will see this stuff and take it as gospel).

Not trying to throw shade at you, DW, but *Lithium batteries* (specifically) are non-rechargable and not the type that are used in RVs. This note about burning like white phosphorus – while accurate for *Lithium batteries* – is NOT correct or applicable for LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) fires. This is correct for LITHIUM battery fires (and require a class D extinguisher), of which LiFePO4 are NOT (and only require a class B extinguisher ... and you CAN use water on, and they do NOT act like a catalyst and feeds the fire).

Even the more delicate/fire-prone Lithium-Ion batteries (like we see in laptops and cell phones, which are also not *Lithium batteries*) do not burn out-of-control like a Lithium Battery. Water works just fine as a fire extinguishing medium on Lithium-Ion batteries since the lithium inside of these batteries are a lithium salt electrolyte and NOT pure lithium (metal). Lithium metal itself is the real issue, not electrolyte salts.

It's just chemistry, but the chemistry is important in this case. A little bit like the difference btw H2O and H2O2 - it's only one extra oxygen atom, but that little bit makes all the difference between water and rocket fuel.

Just my .02. Let's be careful out there.

 

[Aussieguy]

There was a post where a lifepo4 caught fire

Owner was able to put it out
Was not a uncontrollable disaster

He showed pictures of one really bad battery was damaged and second one was scorched
His comments was the worst part was the smell

 

[tomupnorth]

Damn. I like smoking in bed.

 

[acdii]

Has anyone here ever attempted to extinguish a lithium battery fire? They burn like white phosphorus. Hard to extinguish. Water acts like a catalyst and only feeds the fire.

Yes, Lithium Polymer, but thats not the type discussed here. Lifepo4, when built properly, do not pose a fire hazard, only cheaply made with pouches instead of cells and cheap BSM with no overload protections have a risk of fires, and those mainly just blow smoke.

I have had LiFe and Lithium Ion batteries go bad and I purposely entertained myself to a fireworks display by over charging them when they go bad. The LiPo though, those are the most dangerous ones, they go hiss bam boom and flare dramatically in an instant and will burn a house down in moments if left inside. They also emit toxic fumes.

And yes, if done just right a Lifepo4 can explode, but again only if its the pouch type. They Flare a bright flame, then turn to all smoke. It took a 5.56 armor piercing round to do it though so stay away from wars and you will be fine.

 

[timfromma]

I keep mine inside mostly to keep the DC cables short. My AC will draw about 130A from the batteries so the shorter the cables the better.

 

[TitanMike]

I keep mine inside mostly to keep the DC cables short. My AC will draw about 130A from the batteries so the shorter the cables the better.

Also saves money because of the cost for heavy gauge wires.

 

[escape pod 47]

Probably already mentioned but the Forest River "Power Package" LiFePo4 option is factory installed under the bed.

 

[tomupnorth]

Inneresting, thanks--if mentioned already I certainly missed it.

Got my TT yesterday and I'm inclined now to do as @Chuck754 suggested i.e. just replace the marine lead acid battery on the tongue with a LiFePo4, putting a new inverter in the pass-thru storage nearby, and declare victory.