Trailer Tires and nitrogen fill - Thoughts

[Tcmustang93]

Guys. Here is the REAL LOW DOWN on Nitrogen fill. My local dealer promised 20-25% more fuel milage if I would let them add Nitrogen to the tires. Also my tires would last to 75,000 mile tread life. I would cut down on the number of oil changes needed and my car ins would be cut by 15% after I tell my ins company that I am riding safer on Nitrogen filled tires. I cant remember some of the realistic claims but geez, if its that good I am going to start a Nitrogen tire filling business. Maybe have a remote come-to-you BUSINESS . I would make millions. BIGGEST SCAM

 

[Fineline]

X9 or 10

 

[TitanMike]

I've never seen a nitrogen tank at an auto dealership

They don't use tanks of nitrogen as a rule. They use a "nitrogen generator" which separates nitrogen from oxygen and other gases. Some automatically purge air from tire and then refill with nitrogen.

For large installations there are 'separators" that are about the size of a gas pump and can provide enough to fill quite a few tires per hour.

 

[nvallerga]

Consumer Reports article about Nitrogen

I saw a article a few years ago in CR that talked about this. They said that the only vehicles that it MIGHT help would be big rigs that put on high miles with those 100 PSI tires. Other then that you can use it in your light cars and trucks...just don't pay for it!

 

[TitanMike]

I saw a article a few years ago in CR that talked about this. They said that the only vehicles that it MIGHT help would be big rigs that put on high miles with those 100 PSI tires. Other then that you can use it in your light cars and trucks...just don't pay for it!

Knowing how fleet operators of "big rigs" are trying to cut costs and squeeze more miles per gallon out of fuel, as well as more miles out of tires, if this was true every fleet operator would be using nitrogen in tires. Independent operators not so much.

 

[NJKris]

They don't use tanks of nitrogen as a rule. They use a "nitrogen generator" which separates nitrogen from oxygen and other gases. Some automatically purge air from tire and then refill with nitrogen.

For large installations there are 'separators" that are about the size of a gas pump and can provide enough to fill quite a few tires per hour.

Correct, a garage I used to use had a nitrogen generator.

 

[Freetyme]

Been lucky enough so far to not have a blow out yet. Ditched the like new in tread wear China bombs for the GY Endurance. I've been topping them off with regular compressed air since.

 

[NJKris]

My Chinese Westlakes have 6 years on them. Going to replace them soon.

 

[Beerfix]

A few truths about nitrogen in tires. Nitrogen IS less susceptible to changes of pressure due to temperature than compressed air. Nitrogen IS a larger molecule than compressed air, and will help with small leaks. Nitrogen IS easy to store in 2200 PSI high pressure cylinders, and is handy to have around. Nitrogen IS 99.9ish% dry as compared to the moisture created making compressed air. Nitrogen IS used in tires by most Motorsports race teams, due to all the above. Nitrogen IS indeed better than compressed air in ANY tire, in any application. Is it worth someone "up-charging", or paying extra? HELL NO, don't fall for that. A "good honest" tire shop will use nitrogen over compressed air anytime, and you'll never know it. I use it at home since I have it around due to my trade in HVAC. If you can use nitrogen in your tires, it is better than compressed air by all accounts, but some scammer trying to soak money out of you trying to spin some BS is never okay.

 

[rlocicero]

Need thoughts on if just use regular air or is going to expense of nitrogen fill advisable?
One tire on my Wolf Pup 18 RTJ blew on the last trip. Spare is one, same brand and size as originals on axle. Had to order new tire to get same brand and size. Question about using nitrogen fill. When the guys replaced with the spare, it was down to 25 PSI. They filled with regular air to pressure. Road pressure 65 PSI. I am ready to have new tire installed on old rim. Plan is to leave old spare on and replace good original to become spare. This means doing a nitrogen fill for both the new tire and the recently installed original spare.?.

I have been towing RVs for approximately 52 years from pop-ups to travel trailers to fifth wheels and the only time I had a problem with the tire was because it was a China bomb. As long as you check your tire pressures, keep them where they belong and cover them up during the extended sun for a period of time, you don’t need nitrogen.

 

[jimfoxx]

nitrogen unnecessary

Our regular atmosphere is 80% nitrogen already. A little bit more is fairly useless!!1

 

[5picker]

A few truths about nitrogen in tires. Nitrogen IS less susceptible to changes of pressure due to temperature than compressed air. Nitrogen IS a larger molecule than compressed air, and will help with small leaks. Nitrogen IS easy to store in 2200 PSI high pressure cylinders, and is handy to have around. Nitrogen IS 99.9ish% dry as compared to the moisture created making compressed air. Nitrogen IS used in tires by most Motorsports race teams, due to all the above. Nitrogen IS indeed better than compressed air in ANY tire, in any application. Is it worth someone "up-charging", or paying extra? HELL NO, don't fall for that. A "good honest" tire shop will use nitrogen over compressed air anytime, and you'll never know it. I use it at home since I have it around due to my trade in HVAC. If you can use nitrogen in your tires, it is better than compressed air by all accounts, but some scammer trying to soak money out of you trying to spin some BS is never okay.

I seen someone mention this before but never as an option to help cure small leaks.

If your tire leaks, wouldn't you want to fix it instead of adding Nitrogen to "see" if it helps cure your leak issue?

And if it does leak non-nitrogen molecules through the pores of the rubber, (I'm skeptical) how many refills of the tire with compressed air does it take before it's all nitrogen in there?

 

[Mike134]

Our regular atmosphere is 80% nitrogen already. A little bit more is fairly useless!!1

Yep!!! This whole idea of "bigger molecules" is just an internet legend. If it was true a 100PSI tire should never leak down past 80 since only nitrogen should be left in the tire. All the "smaller molecules" having leaked out.

 

[TitanMike]

Yep!!! This whole idea of "bigger molecules" is just an internet legend. If it was true a 100PSI tire should never leak down past 80 since only nitrogen should be left in the tire. All the "smaller molecules" having leaked out.

If it's just "internet legend" then how do you suppose the nitrogen generators used in dealerships and tire stores work.

To answer that they pass compressed over a specially designed membrane that allows gases other than Nitrogen to pass through and exhaust to the atmosphere. Just like water is filtered in a reverse osmosis filter.

A tire's inner liner is designed to provide a barrier to this type of diffusion through the tire body and today's tires are infinitely better than tubeless tires that were first introduced.

Nitrogen fill on automotive tires is a lot like all the "dietary supplements" hyped today. Most do no good but don't do harm either----except to one's wallet.

As with both above there will be those who buy and those who don't. Each will have to decide for themselves.

Btw-----for those who say "but air has water in it", yes,
average air will be about 0.04% water VAPOR. As it's compressed, passed through a separator, transported through distribution lines in a shop (often through another air/water separator on tire machine) and ultimately put into a tire, it's percentage has been totally reduced to an even less significant level.

Now if a replacement tire has been stored outside in the rain and the installer hasn't removed the accumulated water, that's a whole different issue.

 

[Mike134]

If it's just "internet legend" then how do you suppose the nitrogen generators used in dealerships and tire stores work.

To answer that they pass compressed over a specially designed membrane that allows gases other than Nitrogen to pass through and exhaust to the atmosphere. Just like water is filtered in a reverse osmosis filter.

A tire's inner liner is designed to provide a barrier to this type of diffusion through the tire body and today's tires are infinitely better than tubeless tires that were first introduced.

Nitrogen fill on automotive tires is a lot like all the "dietary supplements" hyped today. Most do no good but don't do harm either----except to one's wallet.

As with both above there will be those who buy and those who don't. Each will have to decide for themselves.

Btw-----for those who say "but air has water in it", yes,
average air will be about 0.04% water VAPOR. As it's compressed, passed through a separator, transported through distribution lines in a shop (often through another air/water separator on tire machine) and ultimately put into a tire, it's percentage has been totally reduced to an even less significant level.

Now if a replacement tire has been stored outside in the rain and the installer hasn't removed the accumulated water, that's a whole different issue.

Exactly!!! However, tire manufactures do not put that membrane in their tires hence my statement remains correct. Internet legend

 

[TitanMike]

Exactly!!! However, tire manufactures do not put that membrane in their tires hence my statement remains correct. Internet legend

No they don't. However, because the inter-liner in tires is not perfect some gas molecules do escape.

Have you ever wondered why tires lose air pressure over time even if you measure the pressure at the same ambient temps? Where do you suppose that air went.

Before answering, my statements are based on knowledge obtained my 32 years in the technical side of tires, automotive wheel services, and the related service equipment.

Unlike non professionals I regularly consulted with manufacturers for direct information, not just internet forums.

Believe what you want but that won't change the science.

Here's some science:

The atomic radii of nitrogen is larger than oxygen.

Oxygen: 60 PPM
Nitrogen: 65 PPM

The greater the value of PPM, the bigger the atomic radii.

Explanation:
Atomic radii decreases as you go across a period due to the increase of electrons and protons. As protons is more stronger than electrons and weight 2000 times as much, they are going to attract the outer electrons more towards the nucleus. Atomic radius is the distance between the centre of nucleus to the furthest electron on the last shell, if the nucleus (protons+neutrons) attract these electrons greater towards the nucleus, this atomic radii decrease. That's why you find a decrease in atomic radius across a period.

Since the Nitrogen Atom larger, it permeates slower than an Oxygen Atom.

In summary, this process takes place slowly in today's tires. People would be better served to just buy a good, accurate, tire pressure gauge, and then use it regularly (even if a TPMS is installed).

 

[Mike134]

No they don't. However, because the inter-liner in tires is not perfect some gas molecules do escape.

Have you ever wondered why tires lose air pressure over time even if you measure the pressure at the same ambient temps? Where do you suppose that air went.

Before answering, my statements are based on knowledge obtained my 32 years in the technical side of tires, automotive wheel services, and the related service equipment.

Unlike non professionals I regularly consulted with manufacturers for direct information, not just internet forums.

Believe what you want but that won't change the science.

Science says 100% nitrogen in passenger applications is worthless which is why no tire manufacturer says to use it.

 

[TitanMike]

Science says 100% nitrogen in passenger applications is worthless which is why no tire manufacturer says to use it.

Where did I ever say it was needed. The fact a tire CAN lose pressure due to permeation is what I was addressing and that is fact, not internet myth.

FWIW, automotive tire manufacturers DID investigate the possibility that using Nitrogen inflation might reduce tire failures in hot climates like the SW. Tire failure rates in those areas were high due to heat and the fact people just didn't maintain tire pressures. That pretty much stopped when self service gas replaced full service gas stations where air pressure was checked for free with every tank fill.

Wasn't just the warranty rates in the SW but also the infamous Ford Explorer/Firestone tire failures with fatalities that caused the interest.

It ended up that just mandating TPMS on light trucks and SUV's, and eventually passenger vehicles, reduced the problem enough to go no further with Nitrogen "non critical applications".

Also a sigh of relief from most of the 28-29 thousand tire stores in the US that are annually installing over 200 million replacement tires. No need for them to to purchase equipment to supply Nitrogen that can cost thousands. ($3,000-$20,000 depending on amount minute flow rate)

Same for auto dealer service shops.

Some have added the equipment and offer it as an added profit center and enough are "biting" to keep the machines "generating".

Want to have some fun?

Buy one of these for over $300 and check the Nitrogen percentage in your regular air filled tires over the next couple of years. According to a large supplier of Nitrogen generators to the tire industry, in a personal conversation with Company's president, regular testing like that will show the Nitrogen percentage to increase. Of course they don't publish that fact as they sell the generators

 

[Bob K4TAX]

SCAM? Depending on if one is selling Nitrogen for filling tires, or if one is buying Nitrogen to fill tires.

Bob

 

[acadianbob]

Apparently Rockwood still thinks it is a selling point. Our new trailer came with nitrogen filled tires as a "big benefit"! Ha. . . . .